[Peak_Plus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MyOtherID', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')ndividual light rail needs enormous amounts of infrastructure, is very very expensive (but so are cars) and would need to be identical everywhere in order to even work. And, once you've built the system, you're stuck with it.

[Mesuge]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', 'T')he laws of physics tell us the 8000 MPG car is a joke. Electric cars use 90-96 odd percent efficient motors, which leads a family type car equivalent to get around 100-120mpg without conversion losses taken into account. The only way you can improve this efficiency is to install re-gen braking and make the thing a lot lighter, but that's about it. Or turn it into an impractical go-kart (see above).

[Battle_Scarred_Galactico]

The truck question is a damn good one, and the answer is you won't be able to move the stuff very far. Time for that word again, local.

To get back the title topic, is this guy claiming this is the futue of automobiles ? If that IS the claim being made its' just another huge example of the point flying over their heads.

The truck question was the best point raised, more important than cars.

[grabby]

If we CHANGE THE SPEED LIMIT to maximum 50 mph and minimum 25 you will see real time solar cars that get infinite miles per gallon.
sine they can run electric when the sun is out.

If a car is LIGHT that is factor number one best.
air resistance is #2
wheel resistance is #3
#1 is WEIGHT!

if we make them very light, then hybrids will disappear, hybrids are only good with heavier vehicles that start and stop a lot.

THE MOST EFFICIENT readily availabel consumer VEHICLE IN THE WORLD IS A BYCICLE.
you can get little trailers with them.
nothing can outperform a bycicle, and you can get them with a little gas motor on them that get 200 mpg and you dont have to peddle.

BiCYCLE is 500 dollars.

CARDIAC BYPASS SURGERY is 50,000 dollars

Choose your lifestyle.

[Croakmore]

...and, gee, it would be swell if the U.S. raised the minimum age for a drivers license to 18. All sorts of nasty problems could be solved with one stroke.

—Croakmore

[Peak_Plus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('grabby', '
')THE MOST EFFICIENT readily availabel consumer VEHICLE IN THE WORLD IS A BYCICLE.
you can get little trailers with them.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Peak_Plus', 'Y')ou need good roads for bicycles too, meaning a (good) bit of infrastructure.

[Omnitir]

Its “stunts” like this that help push every-day common-use technology forwards. We may not see these slick little 8000 mpg cart things on the roads anytime soon, but we may see increased efficiency in ordinary vehicles thanks to the efforts of individuals such as this.

This is more then a mere stunt.

[Mesuge]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Peak_Plus', 'Y')ou need good roads for bicycles too, meaning a (good) bit of infrastructure.

[Mesuge]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('grabby', 'n')othing can outperform a bycicle, and you can get them with a little gas motor on them that get 200 mpg and you dont have to peddle.

[WisJim]

I tried to find some good info on "MPG" equivalent of a bicyclist, and found this http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question527.htm which says that based on calorie content, a bicyclist might be getting 912 mpg. Other sources, that I don't recall very well, may have given a figure up to 3000 mpg.

I would like to see other, perhaps better researched, info on the subject.

Regarding small motorcycles, one of our Honda 100s sometimes gets over 140mpg in town on short trips. More often, it is getting in the 80 to 100 mpg range. A well streamlined motorcycle might get over 400 mpg on the road, but the streamlining might make it hard to use in town. http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/470MPG ... 0Main.html

[Mesuge]

WisJim> Thanks interesting stuff indeed..

Lens Armstrong can put 1kW (peak) but it would be less for continuous workout and even less for average joe/sue/helmut

Let see, low tech el. assisted bicycle (no fairing) - 912mpg (food<>calories)

=> 2466 (15Wh/mi)mpg - 912mpg = 1544mpg

That's still good value if you consider 370mpg for el. scooter or 21.6mpg for US CAFE car fleet

[Frank]

I've thought about trying some of Vetter's stuff too, but the cost is pretty steep. I can report that a small fairing on a bicycle ("ZZipper") is worth about 2 gears (i.e. you can go faster for same effort) but don't think they even make them any more. I used to use a mylar cover for the rear wheel on my bike and that did something, but not as much as the fairing.

For an idea of how effective aero design is for m-cycles, my Hayabusa can get > 50 mpg in "cruise" mode, even though it can put 150 hp to the rear wheels.

I don't think that anyone has mentioned the point yet that we're going to have to give-up doing whatever we want, whenever we want. It's not unusual in other parts of the world to schedule certain tasks for when power is available. Living the way we do now is a consumption paradigm that will probably have to change as we move to more sustainable sources.

[Mesuge]

Bike aerofairing could be done diy and on the budget too:




http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/470MPG ... onomy.html

--

To your natural cycle life style. This is a good idea, however you can't run this kid of civilization on solar/wind electricity generation peaks. Because it's incompatible with the economic system of today..

But I'm afraid we will return soon to this more nature connected life soon..

[gg3]

Yes, there are all kinds of emotional investments going on... on one hand, excessive convenience (SUVs), and on the other hand, punitiveness (the righteousness of being cold and wet).

None of this is necessary.

Once you allow for bicycles, you can add a wheel and have a trike. Once you allow for a little electric motor, you can add a 50-cc internal combustion engine to keep the batteries charged so you don't run out of juice on the road. At that point, only a hair-shirt puritan would demand that the occupants be wet and cold. For the rest of us, an enclosure made of tough recycled plastics will do nicely, and the resulting contraption will get us around on local errands at three-digit mileage. It might even have a radio.

So, about trucks.

The onus is on the anti-truck crowd to come up with replacements. I've already figured out a decent amount of this but I'm going to keep my moose shut for the moment and let some of the anti-truckers have a go at it. Try your hand at designing for a few of the following types of loads & duties:

Fresh produce.
Milk, eggs, cheese, meat, fish, ice cream, and the like.
Postal mail.
Parcels & packages.
Building materials: structural timber, concrete, plywood, brick, stone, steel.
Manufactured goods such as furniture and appliances.
Utility maintenance such as street lights, and electric and telephone lines.
Water & sewer maintenance.
Refuse & recycling collection.
Street sweeping, fallen-leaf removal, snow clearance.
Road maintenance e.g. fixing holes in streets & bike/trike paths.
And last but by no means least, police, fire, and paramedic.

Here are a few specific cases to think about:

You live in a rural area. You have to buy a bed, consisting of a frame, a box spring, and a mattress, of sufficient size that two people can sleep together comfortably (e.g. queen or king size mattress). And you also have to buy some bookcases. How do those things get from the store to your house?

You live in an apartment in the city. What happens to your garbage (food waste), refuse (non food, non recyclable waste), and recyclables?

In the city, horses have become a popular mode of transport again. What happens to all of their urine and manure?

You live in a condominium or cohousing development. Someone falls asleep with a candle burning and the next thing you know their place is on fire. Your place is two units away, separated only by wood-frame walls. What next...?

[Wildwell]

Trucks and electric vans should be used for localised deliveries I think that's all anyone is arguing. The rise in truck transport is a relatively recent phenomenon. (Post war).

In your list above most of those commodities were rail served (Eg Milk, Parcels, Furniture) with horses/small trucks doing localised delivery if places weren't rail served, which they often were.

The principal reason why we subsidise national rail networks in Europe is passengers were never that profitable, rail systems always made money out of freight.

[WisJim]

I think that a combination of railroads and short haul trucking wouuld take care of almost all of our current trucking needs, and improvements in both trucks (including methods of powering them) and the railroads could be made to avoid any future problems. But of course that won't happen due to politicians and their nonsense.

I recently came across an interesting web site showing how a fellow brought home a new full sized refrigerator on his bicycle trailer. I'll see if I can find it. Recently on Wisconsin Public Radio was a program about biking and someone called in with a report on how a friend moved to a new house, moving everything by bicycle trailers with the help of many friends.

I see a couple of parts to the solution to these kinds of problems. Don't have so much stuff to move, and don't m ove so often.

[Speed]

8000 MPG. Great.

But what we need is 33 MPG cars driving down on every street, parked in every garage. That's approximately the average fleet MPG required to eliminate the need for imported oil to fuel US transportation. And that is quite a trick. The vehicle has to be everything the current average 4,000 car offers the public, good handling, acceleration, safety, style. But there's more. They have to fit into the current multi-billion dollar automotive manufacturing infrastructure.

And there are such cars, but surprise - no one buys small cars. That's why there must be a catalyst - a strong incentive to buy these vehicles. Would $6 dollars a gallon do the trick? It seems to work quite well in Europe where almost every car is small.

How long do we have to wait? Maybe not that long.

[Frank]

I agree with you Speed and there's lots of ways to accomplish the goal. If every car on the road was magically a Toyota Prius, the fleet economy would double overnight. Not too shabby, eh? Not realistic either.

I don't think that even $6/gal gas will make much of a dent... face it, folks that can afford $45K for a SUV can afford to put fuel into it. They may bitch a lot but they'll still drive. People aren't hurting enough yet. It's the average guy who struggles a bit each day that'll make the changeover. Poor people will be stuck because their only choice will be to drive less (not that that's a bad thing but it will be unfair.)

My opinion is that the only way to do it is via regulation. Of course, nothing has changed for 20 years so don't hold your breath. We're going to need a semi-disaster before the gov't takes any significant action.

gg3: I think we'll see a move towards neighborhood-based vehicle-sharing or leasing. Unless I need a truck every single day, why should I own it? Around here, everyone drives a truck because, well - because... actually, I'm not sure why. Because it's fun I guess. And because they actually need one three times a year...

[WisJim]

The local University sponsors a high school high-mileage vehicle contest, and the basic vehicles use a small (maybe 2hp?) Briggs and Stratton engine, or at least did when my son's participated. I think that a similar class or project ought to be available, if not required, at every public high school, if for no other reason than to expose kids to mechanical equipment and the kind of thinking that is needed to get maximum mpg out of any kind of vehicle.