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THE Collapse of the US Thread (merged)
Leanan justifies plunder as necessary
by Fellow slave » Mon 12 Jul 2004, 00:28:21
I cannot agree that it is necessary to have more government because life is supposedly more complex. If 5% of the economy was all that was necessary in 1776 then by extrapolation, 200 years before that time when times were less complex, then there should have been even less government. Is there any coorelation to complexity and the total take of the economic pie by the ruling powers? I think not except for the following:
The origin of government began when mankind began to accumulate surplus and became sedintary rather than wandering. Before that there was nothing much worth plundering, and any attempt to plunder resulted in flight. Agriculture and herding changed that. Indiscriminate plunder was a problem; eventually it was solved by a agreement by the producers and the strongest plunderers for protection. The producers paid a steady tribute to the powerful in return for protection against random plunder by other aggressors. Government was born and ever since it has been a constant plunder varying in amount based on what was available to plunder and how much the government could get away with without significant resistance. It didn't take long for the plunder to reach the equivalent of slavery and most of human history has been this slavery. There have been small periods of time when the plunder collapsed and a period of freedom ensued. Out of these brief periods of history came most of human advance. The remainder of time in slavery resulted in economic stagnation and a distribution of wealth characteristic of slavery. Just because you cannot see iron chains on your ankles does not mean that they are not there in the less visible form of "laws" having the same effect as those iron chains.
You are simply appoligizing for slavery when you say that this massive plunder by the current US government is necessary based on complexity. First of all there are countless freemarket private alternatives to the communal solutions that have been imposed by our masters. It was only 75 years old when one US Civil War occurred, which, contrary to popular belief, was not to free the Negro slaves. Had it not been for the exploitation of hydrocarbons and the associated increase in living conditions, then we would have had another test of the US government as a result of the depression of the 1930's.
Can you imagine what will happen when survival comes into question as a result the economic collapse associated with declining energy and the related production of economic goods? Think government will volunteer to reduce plunder or that people barely surviving will look kindly to being exploited by government? Think people won't blame the government that has falsly for years laid claim to credit for economic conditions? This is a volcano waiting to explode, and it won't be pretty nor will it be easy to sit on the sidelines as is always the case with social breakdowns of this nature.
The origin of government began when mankind began to accumulate surplus and became sedintary rather than wandering. Before that there was nothing much worth plundering, and any attempt to plunder resulted in flight. Agriculture and herding changed that. Indiscriminate plunder was a problem; eventually it was solved by a agreement by the producers and the strongest plunderers for protection. The producers paid a steady tribute to the powerful in return for protection against random plunder by other aggressors. Government was born and ever since it has been a constant plunder varying in amount based on what was available to plunder and how much the government could get away with without significant resistance. It didn't take long for the plunder to reach the equivalent of slavery and most of human history has been this slavery. There have been small periods of time when the plunder collapsed and a period of freedom ensued. Out of these brief periods of history came most of human advance. The remainder of time in slavery resulted in economic stagnation and a distribution of wealth characteristic of slavery. Just because you cannot see iron chains on your ankles does not mean that they are not there in the less visible form of "laws" having the same effect as those iron chains.
You are simply appoligizing for slavery when you say that this massive plunder by the current US government is necessary based on complexity. First of all there are countless freemarket private alternatives to the communal solutions that have been imposed by our masters. It was only 75 years old when one US Civil War occurred, which, contrary to popular belief, was not to free the Negro slaves. Had it not been for the exploitation of hydrocarbons and the associated increase in living conditions, then we would have had another test of the US government as a result of the depression of the 1930's.
Can you imagine what will happen when survival comes into question as a result the economic collapse associated with declining energy and the related production of economic goods? Think government will volunteer to reduce plunder or that people barely surviving will look kindly to being exploited by government? Think people won't blame the government that has falsly for years laid claim to credit for economic conditions? This is a volcano waiting to explode, and it won't be pretty nor will it be easy to sit on the sidelines as is always the case with social breakdowns of this nature.
- Fellow slave
by Chicagoan » Mon 12 Jul 2004, 01:40:29
The post-peak world will be so different then the oil age that it is unlikely that the government will survive in its present form. What is needed is a constitutional convention that returns power to the states. The role of the central government is to handle foreign relations and a postal service. We need some sort of union to keep the peace between the states. Look at European history to see what happens when you have no central governent. European countries are about the size of American states after all.
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by Guest » Mon 12 Jul 2004, 08:16:24
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'T')he Snopes article doesn't really come down one way or the other.
In any case, 200 years is very old for a democracy, and quite respectible for a complex society in general.
In any case, 200 years is very old for a democracy, and quite respectible for a complex society in general.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_code('', '
However, there is no record of The Fall of the Athenian Republic or The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic in the Library of Congress, which has several other titles by Tytler.
')
Sounds pretty concrete to me.
Jay's right you guys have blinders on and are unable to see anything other than what you want.
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by Aaron » Mon 12 Jul 2004, 08:48:30
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ounds pretty concrete to me.
Jay's right you guys have blinders on and are unable to see anything other than what you want.
Jay's right you guys have blinders on and are unable to see anything other than what you want.
With 1/2 millions views, and an average of 10,000 views per day, and thousands of posts it may be less than accurate to categorize "you guys" based on 3 posts.
* Just a thought
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.
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by Leanan » Mon 12 Jul 2004, 09:56:21
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he origin of government began when mankind began to accumulate surplus and became sedintary rather than wandering.
This is the Marxist view, and while it has its points, Tainter argues that it's not enough to fully explain the rise of complex societies.
However, you are right in that authorities need return only a small portion of they take to maintain their legitimacy. Collapse comes when they can no longer do even that.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou are simply appoligizing for slavery when you say that this massive plunder by the current US government is necessary based on complexity.
No, I don't think I am. For one thing, you can always leave. Heck, I have. I came back.
Rather, there are some problems that are too large for individuals to solve. Yes, we probably would be better off if we were all egalitarian hunter-gatherers. But notice that there aren't many hunter-gatherers left? They've been pushed to the least desirable areas. (The Artic, the Kalahari desert, etc.) Because when push comes to shove, the more complex society wins. Even Libertarians agree that the federal government should provide for the national defense.
Tainter uses as example an ancient near east society where the problem was irrigation increasing the salinity of the soil. Eventually, a complex society arose that created a complex irrigation system that prevented the buildup of salinity. This was so large and so complex that individual villages would never have been able to do it on their own.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')However, there is no record of The Fall of the Athenian Republic or The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic in the Library of Congress, which has several other titles by Tytler.
Sounds pretty concrete to me.
But they also leave open the possibility that he said it somewhere else.
In any case, the point stands, regardless of who said it: we are not young, as democracies go. And 200 years is a respectable age for any society. Moreover, some would count our civilization as going back much farther, since it's built on the ones Europeans established.
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