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A Post-PO scenario

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

A Post-PO scenario

Unread postby DJ_Mittens » Wed 03 May 2006, 20:15:03

This post is a sort of running though process I have for PO, and why the ramifications will be wider than even cautious adopters can imagine. I encourage people to help point out flaws in my logic, as my opinions are very fluid.

The main purpose of this diatribe is for those who say that rising oil prices will bring about diversification, conservation, and result in less reliance on oil.

We can agree that the current economy is driven by cheap oil, or rather, cheap energy. So, with the increasing price of oil, we lose cheap energy.

What are the consequences?

Immediately, we see fewer people purchasing gasoline, and trying to get rid of extra cars, move to mass transportation, etc. This will mean fewer gas stations, fewer cars on the road, fewer new cars being purchased, and increased demand for mass transportation.

Car prices then fall, and automotive manufacturers are forced to downsize. This means lots and lots of lost jobs, not just directly for the automobile manufacturers, but any direct suppliers.

The same can be said for trucking industries, airlines, taxi companies, really anyone directly relying on oil or gasoline or transportation. Transportation become much more expensive, and fewer people can afford their services.

Fewer people working competing for a diminishing job market. Wages will decrease. Taxes will increase. Currency instability will run rampant, especially in the US, as credit card companies collapse with the inability for their customers to fulfill their debt obligations.

Banks will begin foreclosing on assets, as people no longer have jobs to pay their bills. Other people sell their assets, too, for similar reasons. Housing prices will collapse, and millions of people will lose equity in their homes. More people will be living in smaller homes, with larger homes becoming multi-tenant facilities.

With the increased transportation costs comes increased costs for goods. Food will likely double, possibly triple in cost. That means less disposable income. Services such as internet and cable TV, which have been givens as of late will become high-cost novelties that most cannot afford. Computer and TV sales will decrease. More people lose their jobs (including myself :( )

By this time, most private sector investing is drying up. Any possible money used to finance much-needed research must be taken up by the government supported by an ever-dwindling tax base and an ever-increasing support structure.

Alternatives will also be unfeasible at this point. With the increased demand for alternative fuels, such as uranium, hydroelectricity, and wind/solar power, the price of energy derived from these means will increase. As the hydro dams of my home in Manitoba are ever required to support a larger burden of the power grid, energy bills will skyrocket. That means fewer dollars that could otherwise be spent to invest in alternatives, and instead spent to maintain the current system.


The end game I see is a near elimination of much of the entertainment industries, as individual disposable income is virtually eliminated in favor of grossly increased food and necessity costs, combined with lower wages. Basically, a revisited global depression. Society will revert to a more agrarian culture, just as with the depression - people growing their own food on their own soil. The problem is the population of the USA is more than twice what it was 80 years ago with fewer "unspoiled" natural resources (thanks to decades of environmental abuse).

Really, by the time prices are so high people want to conserve, it will be too late. Action must be taken immediately, to delay the onset of PO, so that viable alternatives can be evaluated and implemented before the crunch arrives. Question is, with Western culture's desire for consumption and the increasing desire for oil from China and India, will we make those changes?


*edit*

I would also like to add that the overwhelming deficit spending culture in North America, combined with already increasing demand on healthcare and social services will likely result in a bankrupt government unable to provide any services to their population, and be unable to finance alternative energy research at all, leaving everyone SOL for the future.
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Re: A Post-PO scenario

Unread postby coyote » Wed 03 May 2006, 22:11:18

Hi DJ. Welcome to the nuthouse.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DJ_Mittens', 'W')e can agree that the current economy is driven by cheap oil, or rather, cheap energy. So, with the increasing price of oil, we lose cheap energy.

I happen to agree with you there, but many people on this site will not, believing Peak Oil to be a liquid fuels crisis only, not an energy crisis. So you'll get plenty of controversy right from the get go.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DJ_Mittens', 'A')lternatives will also be unfeasible at this point. With the increased demand for alternative fuels, such as uranium, hydroelectricity, and wind/solar power, the price of energy derived from these means will increase....

I think that depends on what you mean... the alternatives you mentioned, plus certain biofuels, might be very feasible on a local level. But if you mean that on a macro scale they will never replace our current consumption of oil, and therefore our current lifestyle -- it would be pretty difficult to disagree with that statement.

Once again, welcome. Good first post.
Lord, here comes the flood
We'll say goodbye to flesh and blood
If again the seas are silent in any still alive
It'll be those who gave their island to survive...
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Re: A Post-PO scenario

Unread postby gigacannon » Wed 03 May 2006, 22:49:49

I just find it hard to imagine that without petroleum, things will be worse than before we had coal. We have coal. We have a food surplus. We have technology. I'm ready for things to get worse, and/or harder, and for things to change, but I'm not ready to accept massive population loss. Not locally, in Britain, at least. Worldwide? Definitely.

I'm certainly considering where I'm going to live when I'm older, though. I'm just waiting to see where's best.
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Re: A Post-PO scenario

Unread postby DJ_Mittens » Wed 03 May 2006, 22:52:22

Thanks for the support. Nuthouses are where I'm at home, working in tech support and all.

By alternatives, I have to mean on a macro scale. Selfishly, I can imagine Manitoba will be fine, as we produce rediculous amounts of hydroelectric energy. We also have the space to quadruple our output rather effortlessly (with about $20 billion in capital, comparatively a small amount). But I'm talking about maintaining the status quo - maintaining the economy and our accustomed lifestyle of limitless consumption.

That's the rub, though. Cheap power for everyone. Honestly, I fear the day that the crunch really comes, and the US invades Canada for our resources. My family already agrees we'll just wait at the border with a packed suitcase, and hopefully we won't be hassled too much.
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Re: A Post-PO scenario

Unread postby DJ_Mittens » Wed 03 May 2006, 22:53:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gigacannon', 'I') just find it hard to imagine that without petroleum, things will be worse than before we had coal. We have coal. We have a food surplus. We have technology. I'm ready for things to get worse, and/or harder, and for things to change, but I'm not ready to accept massive population loss. Not locally, in Britain, at least. Worldwide? Definitely.

I'm certainly considering where I'm going to live when I'm older, though. I'm just waiting to see where's best.


That's just it. Life will be like the coal era. Do you want to live like that, however? I don't. I'm certain most people don't.
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Re: A Post-PO scenario

Unread postby gigacannon » Wed 03 May 2006, 23:11:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DJ_Mittens', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gigacannon', 'I') just find it hard to imagine that without petroleum, things will be worse than before we had coal. We have coal. We have a food surplus. We have technology. I'm ready for things to get worse, and/or harder, and for things to change, but I'm not ready to accept massive population loss. Not locally, in Britain, at least. Worldwide? Definitely.

I'm certainly considering where I'm going to live when I'm older, though. I'm just waiting to see where's best.


That's just it. Life will be like the coal era. Do you want to live like that, however? I don't. I'm certain most people don't.


I'd be happy with living in the current socially liberal society we have, enough food to live on, and busying myself with daily tasks. We might go back to early 20th Century resources, but we'll have come out with one HELL of a a lot of lessons learnt.
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Re: A Post-PO scenario

Unread postby SoothSayer » Thu 04 May 2006, 04:08:07

>> Services such as internet and cable TV, which have been givens as of late will become high-cost novelties that most cannot afford. Computer and TV sales will decrease.

Not sure about this. I suspect that people will come to rely on the Web, TV etc for their communications & entertainment. Governments will encourage this, as anyone on the Web is NOT rioting or burning car fuel.
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Re: A Post-PO scenario

Unread postby Matth » Thu 04 May 2006, 05:24:08

First time reply to any posts I've read here...

I live here in the Southwest of England (relocated here a year ago from U.S.), and have started to develop strong concerns (ie, fears) about what will occur when fuel becomes so overpriced that the economy actually freezes-up completely. I work for the NHS as a senior manager and I can see first hand the lack of preparedness for the likely social breakdown to come when the next pandemic develops, so I think my fears are justified. People seem extremely focused only on the here and now, just like in the States, and there seem to be plenty of distractions from this likely fuels crisis.

The region I live in is a mixture of densely populated cities and more suburbanized towns and rural areas. We have wholly inadequate public transportation as it is now, and it's pricey to boot. My most basic concern is about how the commuity will devolve when food becomes too expensive -- virtually no one has the space in this city to grow their own -- even if they do have a family garden or allotment...
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Re: A Post-PO scenario

Unread postby Battle_Scarred_Galactico » Thu 04 May 2006, 05:24:52

Good analysis.

One of the main things many people don't get is how many machines and processes are supported by an oil "base" that cannot be replaced. The diminishing of this base will cause huge problems for obvious reasons, as will trying to regress to another energy source that cannot perform the tasks needed, and has a lower EROEI.

once again good post.
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Re: A Post-PO scenario

Unread postby untothislast » Thu 04 May 2006, 05:48:41

As ever, people fail to keep their eye on more than one of the little balls being juggled before them.

The mega-spanner in the works for any type of forecasting, is the unpredictability of climate change. It is - by far - the greatest threat we have to deal with. Being - unlike any sort of energy provision - now completely out of our control, or power to intervene.

Now that, is really scary.
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Re: A Post-PO scenario

Unread postby eric_b » Thu 04 May 2006, 06:45:50

That's a plausible hard crash possibility.

And that's if all goes well. There's the potential for much gloomier
outcomes, like war over what's left of declining resources in the
near future. Including coal.

It's frightening to think the global population continues to explode,
and we are adding hundreds of thousands of people to the planet
with each passing day. It looks like we are speeding past
a massive overshoot to be followed by a spectacular die-off.
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Re: A Post-PO scenario

Unread postby gg3 » Thu 04 May 2006, 07:06:40

DJ, what you're talking about here is a generalized crash scenario. Now here's a key question to think about: When the economy stops growing, and there is no more economic growth to produce improvement in the standard of living for the majority, what do you do about that?


Re. Gigacannon "...but I'm not ready to accept massive population loss."

In fact, massive reduction of population, by whatever means, is both necessary and inevitable. 6-1/2 billion humans are only supportable by burning through cheap energy. The sustainable global population is about one-third of that. The only question is how we get there: nicely, less-nicely, or not-at-all-nicely.
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Re: A Post-PO scenario

Unread postby seldom_seen » Thu 04 May 2006, 07:13:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'I')n fact, massive reduction of population, by whatever means, is both necessary and inevitable. 6-1/2 billion humans are only supportable by burning through cheap energy. The sustainable global population is about one-third of that. The only question is how we get there: nicely, less-nicely, or not-at-all-nicely.

It's important to remember too that a population in overshoot doesn't crash to a level sustainable within their current environment. The crash process is significantly destructive on the environment to the point where the population falls well below what would have been sustainable before the population reached overshoot.

Just trying to think positive : )
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Re: A Post-PO scenario

Unread postby seldom_seen » Thu 04 May 2006, 07:29:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Matth', 'M')y most basic concern is about how the commuity will devolve when food becomes too expensive -- virtually no one has the space in this city to grow their own

Hi MattH. I think your concerns are quite valid.

In ecological terms our cities can be described as "detritus ecosystems." Whereby the ability to support organic life is completely dependent on inputs from outside the system. I might even go a little further and call them parasitic detritus ecosystems because they don't provide any sort of benefit by and large to surrounding natural systems.

I don't think I've ever heard someone say "Well, I'm peak oil aware now and part of my preperations will be to try and get an apartment in manhattan." Or "That's it, this peak oil stuff is serious. Time to move to a condo in central Los Angeles." : )
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Re: A Post-PO scenario

Unread postby gigacannon » Thu 04 May 2006, 07:46:23

Yes, there are 6.5 billion people around now. But the population increase in Europe and to some extent the USA hasn't been that big. We're likely to see loss of life in China and India, and probably a few other eastern countries too. But people have been starving and dying in Africa for years now; and the western world shows indifference. Since we don't actually control those parts of the world with the highest populations, where the crash will hit hardest, and given our indifference to such affairs in the past, are we really going to care in the future either? We'd like to help, but it's not our problem.
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Re: A Post-PO scenario

Unread postby DJ_Mittens » Thu 04 May 2006, 08:44:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'D')J, what you're talking about here is a generalized crash scenario. Now here's a key question to think about: When the economy stops growing, and there is no more economic growth to produce improvement in the standard of living for the majority, what do you do about that?


I think something has already been done. The real estate industry. By keeping interest rates stupidly low and offering limitless credit, the government is cannibalizing their population in the short term, likely hoping that they can continue to control oil or find an alternative with the time bought by the rediculous over-spending of the domestic economy. Unfortunately, it will likely prove to be a supernova scenario - the last great gasp until the economy is nothing but a shattered rock compared to its former glowing glory.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SoothSayer', 'N')ot sure about this. I suspect that people will come to rely on the Web, TV etc for their communications & entertainment. Governments will encourage this, as anyone on the Web is NOT rioting or burning car fuel.


This is true, however new computer purchases will plummet, given the amount of energy a single computer requires to be manufactured, transported, and operated. They "neophytes" that I support will disappear, as they were unable to adapt to computers in the past and no longer have the energy or finances to learn. Call center technical support will all but disappear.

You may be right about television though. It can prove to be quite an opiate, and a grand control method for the government. 1984, anyone?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gigacannon', 'Y')es, there are 6.5 billion people around now. But the population increase in Europe and to some extent the USA hasn't been that big. We're likely to see loss of life in China and India, and probably a few other eastern countries too. But people have been starving and dying in Africa for years now; and the western world shows indifference. Since we don't actually control those parts of the world with the highest populations, where the crash will hit hardest, and given our indifference to such affairs in the past, are we really going to care in the future either? We'd like to help, but it's not our problem.


This is true. There will definitely be a zenophobic increase, and less concern for global social welfare. War is a great example. However, domestically the US doesn't have the resources to support their population anymore either, and the lower and middle classes will suffer significant population decreases. Maybe not half the population, but I don't think 10% would be unreasonable. That's a solid 25 million souls.

The difference is, as has been stated before, that African tribespeople are far better equipped to live off the land than Western-culturalized populations.
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Re: A Post-PO scenario

Unread postby deafskeptic » Thu 04 May 2006, 11:10:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DJ_Mittens', '
')The difference is, as has been stated before, that African tribespeople are far better equipped to live off the land than Western-culturalized populations.


Yes exactly. Although Africa faces tremendous problems regarding disease, environment, and overpopulation, they still have the traditonal knowledge and that will be useful in the coming years - provided that they haven't far exceeded the carrying capacity of their homelands.

EDIT: Wrong guy was qouted and now I have editd it to quote the correct guy. Mea Culpa!
Last edited by deafskeptic on Fri 05 May 2006, 23:32:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Post-PO scenario

Unread postby wildilocks » Thu 04 May 2006, 11:35:23

Ya know what? Something just struck me.

You regularly hear that we actually produce enough food to feed the worlds population, as it is now, but the problem is <I>distribution. </i>

So, when there's a truck strike or any kind of halt in transport, or simply a "lack of demand" [from people who can pay] - we see terrible waste.

Can you imagine how bad that waste is going to be when we start sliding down the downslope? That will be the major problem - that food will be there, at least intially - but it won't be able to get to the people, and then it won't be grown at all... cos all the companies growing the food will be bankrupt... well either that, or Monsanto has some cards they're hiding up their sleeve.. which honestly, wouldn't surprise me.

People who depend on food to be transported to them over distances further than walking are going to be hardest hit, no doubt about it. Africa will be proportionately much less affected - they're already killing themselves off nicely by overburdening their land with people as it is, it's just going to be business as usual most likely.
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Re: A Post-PO scenario

Unread postby gigacannon » Thu 04 May 2006, 12:47:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deafskeptic', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gigacannon', '
')The difference is, as has been stated before, that African tribespeople are far better equipped to live off the land than Western-culturalized populations.


Yes exactly. Although Africa faces tremendous problems regarding disease, environment, and overpopulation, they still have the traditonal knowledge and that will be useful in the coming years - provided that they haven't far exceeded the carrying capacity of their homelands.


Sort your quotes out! That was DJ Mittens!

I must object; Africa is the world's most war-torn continent, hardest to produce food from, has a growing population, massive spread of HIV, and its environment is already changing massively in the face of global warming. Africans might have some abilities to farm the land passed down through the generations, but when your crappy dried-up dirt turns to desert beneath your feet and maniacs are running around with guns, and foreigners are knocking on your door demanding diamonds, oil, or gold, those traditional ways of living mean precisely dick.
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Re: A Post-PO scenario

Unread postby DJ_Mittens » Thu 04 May 2006, 13:30:49

Alright, a fair portion of the population will be in dire straights. From East to West.

But, Africans are facing extinction thanks to war and AIDS. They don't really need the help from oil anyway and, as wildilocks stated, little will change for them.
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