Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

The Robert L Hirsch Thread (merged)

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Scary update from Hirsch

Postby lorenzo » Wed 03 May 2006, 16:56:16

Sadly, the Hirsch report is entirely bogus. So I guess any "update" based on it will be so as well. link

I just had a look at the often quoted "Hirsch" report. I find it surprising that the President of the United States points to biofuels as the future for the United States, while this Hirsch report mentions it only in one very short paragraph. Very strange.
How can there be such a discrepancy? I assume that the President has had discussions with countless advisors that went beyond one pityful paragraph. Else he wouldn't stake America's future on biofuels, would he?
So let's have a look at why the Hirsch report is totally bogus on biofuels.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Q')uote: VI. MITIGATION OPTIONS AND ISSUES E. Liquid FueIs from U.S. Domestic Resources

>already in the title, there's a wrong assumption: biomass does not have to come from U.S. domestic sources; biomass will be traded internationally as it is already being done as we speak.
>see the IEA's Bioenergy Task Force 40, Fair Biotrade, which is entirely devoted to this subject. See the http://www.biomassexchange.com and http://www.bioxchange.com websites for market places that are being created.
>not a single word in the entire Hirsch report refers to international biomass trade. So the entire report loses its credibility, as both the EU, the IEA and bioenergy producing countries recognise that biomass trade will become like the petroleum trade.
>to illustrate this: Brazil is already building a dedicated ethanol pipeline and ocean terminal, for international exports; it has signed deals with Japan and China to export ethanol. / Rotterdam and Ghent are turning their ports into Bioenergy Terminals / Malaysia is building palm oil pipelines.

But let's look at the mistakes the Hirsch report further contains, under this already false assumption.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Q')uote:Biomass can be grown, collected and converted to substitute liquid fuels by a number of processes. Currently, biomass-to-ethanol is produced on a large scale to provide a gasoline additive. The market for ethanol derived from biomass is influenced by federal requirements and facilitated by generous federal and state tax subsidies.

>That's true for the U.S. but not for Brazil or Nigeria or Thailand or Malaysia or Congo or Papua New Guinea or Mozambique who will become liquid biofuels exporters. Even the EU has de-subsidized sugar production and has already removed all trade barriers to all the ACP-countries: link

>Since the biofuels market will be like the international petroleum market, with producers exporting and consumers importing, people are looking beyond domestic resources and to international trade. Hirsch doesn't, which disqualifies his report.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Q')uote:Research holds promise of more economical ethanol production from cellulosic (“woody”) biomass, but related processes are far from economic.

>False, at US$75 per barrel, cellulosic ethanol is already competitive.
>Brazilian ethanol costs US$ 35 per barrel of oil equivalent
>Unsubsidised Palm biodiesel costs US$ 50/55 per barrel of oil equivalent
>Ordinary and *unsubsidised* Euro-biodiesel based on rapeseed costs US$ 60-65 per barrel of oil equivalent
>Biomass-to-gas is now consistently 20 to 30% cheaper than natural gas

In short, all existing liquid and gaseus biofuels are already cheaper to produce than petroleum at US$ 75 and than natural gas at US$13/14 per MMBTU.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Q')uote:Reducing the cost of growing, harvesting, and converting biomass crops will be necessary. In other parts of the world, biomass-to-liquid fuels might be more attractive, depending on a myriad of factors, including local labor costs.

>Remember the row over Cargill's imports of Brazilian ethanol into the U.S.? This says it all: to both Peak Oil fanatics and Hirsch, ethanol is not ethanol when it's not derived from American corn or when it's imported. To them, imported biofuels cannot exist - because it totally undermines their entire hypothesis: link
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Q')uote: Related projections for large-scale production would be strictly speculative.

>On the contrary! Of all liquid fuel production projects, bioenergy projects and their potential are the simplest to project precisely because they are based on simple parametres such as land availability, crop yields and fairly straightforward processing and production.
>That is why the EU and the IEA Bioenergy have been projecting global biomass potentials, and that's why they are so optimistic about them.
>I've never seen a single U.S. study about global bioenergy potential and trade. We all know that this is due to the powerful American corn and soy lobbies who want to protect their assets.
>The American taxpayer is being fooled by those lobbies and by some Peak Oil fanatics. There is an alternative, but they are not supposed to know.
>For IEA Bioenergy studies about global biomass potential, please see the website: http://www.ieabioenergy.com/ And the separate task forces there (especially: Task 40: link).
>For the EU's strategy of working together on biofuels with developing countries in the tropics, see: link
[and the links there]
and: http://www.caricom.org/jsp/regional_news/biofuel_eu.jsp

>The EU's Biomass Action Plan even explictly projects a future of international bioenergy trade, whereby the EU imports biofuels from developing countries: link and link

>Finally, both the World Bank and the IMF understand that the future of liquid fuels is in developing countries with huge untapped potential becoming producers and exporters: link

Quick note: when it comes to the EU, we're dealing with a Belgian and his vision. I'm Belgian too; maybe it's because we're such a tiny irrelevant little country that we have a much more objective view on reality:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Q')uote: Development Commissioner Louis Michel highlighted the potential opportunities that biofuels production present for developing countries, notably those affected by the sugar reform. “Many developing countries are naturally well placed for the production of biofuel feedstocks, particularly those traditionally strong in sugar production. The expanding EU market for biofuels will provide them with new export possibilities. The EU will help them maximise this opportunity with support for knowledge transfer and development of their market potential.” link

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Q')uote:In summary, there are no developed biomass-to-fuels technologies that are now near cost competitive.

>I assume that this grave mistake is due to the fact that the Hirsch report was written in the 1990s when oil was cheap and plenty; if not, we can only conclude that the writers do not know what they're talking about.

>In today's situation, with oil at US$ 75 per barrel, it would be outright *stupid* not to invest in biofuels, which can be produced at US$35-55 per barrel. Since some people are not stupid, that's exactly what they're doing: investing massively and rapidly in biofuels.
In short, when it comes "mitigation", the Hirsch report is totally useless because it has no grasp of what's going on out there. This might be due to several factors: the fact that it was written a long time ago (1990s?, please do not say 2005, because then we can only conclude that Hirsch is an idiot) incompetence of the authors, censorship, influence of lobbies, who knows.

One thing is certain: the report does not mention either the US President's policy intention of making America's future a bioenergy future, nor of the EU's intentions and those of the developing world.
User avatar
lorenzo
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2184
Joined: Sat 01 Jan 2005, 04:00:00
Top

Re: Scary update from Hirsch

Postby aragon » Wed 03 May 2006, 17:21:34

The follow up to the Hirsch report is just sauce for the goose.Most of us here know there is a problem ahead.I for one try to keep some hope alive that the road ahead is not leading to the abyss for the human race.Resource wars are here they have started .Now countries are starting to take back control of their resources(bolivia,venezula).When does the hording start?The problems are beginning to compound.While we are all in the same boat we are not paddling in the same direction.As ive said in previous post JACK you make me sad but wiser.......
User avatar
aragon
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon 04 Jul 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Kelowna,Canada

Re: Scary update from Hirsch

Postby SoothSayer » Wed 03 May 2006, 17:34:56

Zardoz said:

I'll risk being impolite:

We're screwed


Zardoz, I love your posts ... but please, please, please change your avatar from that harridan harpy ...
User avatar
SoothSayer
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1167
Joined: Thu 02 Mar 2006, 04:00:00
Location: England

Re: Scary update from Hirsch

Postby Starvid » Wed 03 May 2006, 18:04:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 't')ry electricifcation of trasportation (wasn't there a post at energybulletin.net or TOD?)

It's here. I heartily recomend it.

I believe it is THE most important thing we can do, more important than biofuels, more important than nuclear power.
Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
User avatar
Starvid
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3021
Joined: Sun 20 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Top

Re: Scary update from Hirsch

Postby something_awfull » Wed 03 May 2006, 18:32:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Geko45', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Atlantean_Relic', 'N')o, It means we are all walking in Giant Hamster wheels to keep the light in DC on.

And sucking on our squeegee sports bottles full of solyent green smoothie...

(if you stop pedaling they send you to the smoothie factory)



LOL :lol: :twisted:
User avatar
something_awfull
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Sat 13 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Sydney, Australia.
Top

Re: Scary update from Hirsch

Postby Zardoz » Wed 03 May 2006, 18:41:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SoothSayer', '.')..please, please, please change your avatar from that harridan harpy...


Done!

(I had a long series of Condi/Hillary avatars planned, but I understand how some people might find those images to be too distressing...)
User avatar
Zardoz
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6323
Joined: Fri 02 Dec 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Oil-addicted Southern Californucopia
Top

Re: Scary update from Hirsch

Postby XOVERX » Wed 03 May 2006, 19:14:51

While there are plenty of energy alternatives the government can push and focus on, the government is still doing absolutely nothing.

Pain doesn't sell in politics.

Politically, things will remain grim until oil contractions force political pain. And by then it will likely be too damn late.

This is the failure of capitalism. And of US style democracy.
User avatar
XOVERX
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue 18 Apr 2006, 03:00:00

Re: Scary update from Hirsch

Postby seahorse » Wed 03 May 2006, 19:45:23

Congress and the American people will do nothing about the failing Social Security and Medicare systems which are going bankrupt as we speak, why should or would they treat PO any different? With our lack of performance and inability to enact simple fixes on programs like Social Security and Medicare, does anyone really believe the American government and people could ever work together to solve a problem as complex as peak oil? Americans can't even agree to extend the age requirement for Social Security benefits to save big bucks, how would they ever agree to invest in trains, nuclear, all this PO shit that requires literally a transformation of "suburbia" from the ground up? They've been talking about SS and Medicare for years. They are always big campaign issues, I guess fuel prices will be added to the long list of campaign issues, but don't expect any action anytime soon.
Last edited by seahorse on Wed 03 May 2006, 20:44:37, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
seahorse
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 2275
Joined: Fri 15 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Arkansas

Re: Scary update from Hirsch

Postby jato » Wed 03 May 2006, 19:53:57

The current US Government is broken. Time to hit the Reset Switch.
jato
 

Re: Scary update from Hirsch

Postby Jester » Wed 03 May 2006, 20:41:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jato', 'T')he current US Government is broken. Time to hit the Reset Switch.


Yeah, I'm tired of this game, lets play Hungry hungry hippos...

gas here in can -uh -duh is 119.2 but everything is fine. better than fine. The news doesn't even show the price of oil...
User avatar
Jester
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu 16 Mar 2006, 04:00:00
Top

Re: Scary update from Hirsch

Postby Free » Wed 03 May 2006, 21:34:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('XOVERX', '
')Pain doesn't sell in politics.

Politically, things will remain grim until oil contractions force political pain. And by then it will likely be too damn late.

This is the failure of capitalism. And of US style democracy.


It's not just US-style democracy. This is a universal problem of current democratic/capitalistic systems. At least you have the likes of Hirsch and Bartlett around, in the EU I don't know of a single person in politics that is clearly PO-aware with all its consequences.

Sure there is a cultural tradition of conservation and a trend to alternatives here, but most of the time cosmetically in the context of environment protection and global warming. It's ok to pretend giving a shit about the environment as long as it doesn't hurt your lifestyle.

Sure, put that solar panels on your roof - on your 2nd house, in the mountains, where you drive with one of your 2 cars.

Fact is that no matter what, people will be generally poorer in the future, and they will tar and feather anybody who dares to tell them this fact.
"Democracy means the opportunity to be everyone's slave."
Karl Kraus
User avatar
Free
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1280
Joined: Sun 28 Nov 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Europe
Top

Re: Scary update from Hirsch

Postby LadyRuby » Wed 03 May 2006, 22:35:47

I love the fact that he talks about jobs created, etc. He's a man on a mission, he's trying to convince our "leaders" that there are many benefits and no downside, so we'd better get cracking...Although I think a little more attention should be paid to improved fuel economies...
User avatar
LadyRuby
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1177
Joined: Mon 13 Jun 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Western US

Re: Scary update from Hirsch

Postby Atlantean_Relic » Wed 03 May 2006, 23:31:14

I was watching Mein Bush this morning. He was bragging how this is the best time in 5 year for college grads looking for jobs. How long will that hold? I wonder if I can convince my job to provide a free wheelbarrow for the upcoming pay days.
User avatar
Atlantean_Relic
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 724
Joined: Mon 24 Oct 2005, 03:00:00
Location: North of Id, west of Oz, and infront of the damned rabbit

Re: Scary update from Hirsch

Postby Zardoz » Thu 04 May 2006, 02:31:03

Here's another scary story from a Hirsh (with no "c"):

The Energy Wars - The rise of a new global energy elite means high oil and gas prices are here to stay.

I wonder how Dubya and Cheney feel as they preside over the fast and steady erosion of American power and influence? They must be getting a little shell-shocked by now.

Watch out for Putin, folks. He looks vindictive.

(This story was posted on the front page by Carrie.)
User avatar
Zardoz
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6323
Joined: Fri 02 Dec 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Oil-addicted Southern Californucopia

Re: Scary update from Hirsch

Postby EnergySpin » Thu 04 May 2006, 04:27:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 't')ry electricifcation of trasportation (wasn't there a post at energybulletin.net or TOD?)

It's here. I heartily recomend it.

I believe it is THE most important thing we can do, more important than biofuels, more important than nuclear power.

Now if I were to apply correlational science and trendology to this ... electrification of transportation would add approximately 4 more dollars per Kwh generated compared to the sticky black stuff.

So it boils down to the following question: how can we get that electricity?
Read this to find out how :-D :-D
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
User avatar
EnergySpin
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sat 25 Jun 2005, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Scary update from Hirsch

Postby evilgenius » Thu 04 May 2006, 04:40:42

Don't they mean that if the peak comes before 2025 America will have to actively begin dismantling suburbia and building something denser? Now, America is relying on economic signals that will drive market forces to gradually rebuild suburbia. The big real estate corps are looking forward to what they can do in the aftermath of the housing crash that is coming. Aren't they going to be surprised to find that all of their big new malls and drive to complexes are exactly the wrong thing economically? We are already at the point where the peak is speaking to the market. The market isn't listening.
User avatar
evilgenius
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3730
Joined: Tue 06 Dec 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Stopped at the Border.

Re: Scary update from Hirsch

Postby untothislast » Thu 04 May 2006, 05:33:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', '
')
Sure there is a cultural tradition of conservation and a trend to alternatives here, but most of the time cosmetically in the context of environment protection and global warming. It's ok to pretend giving a shit about the environment as long as it doesn't hurt your lifestyle.


'Cosmetically' is the key word. Politicians are currently working on the basis that if they're seen to be talking about the problems, it's the same as actually doing something to solve them. This way, it acts as a salve to the public's conscience - who are indeed worried in their own right, but deep down don't really want to have to make the hard sacrifices and decisions required. It's a purely ritualistic exercise - and everybody can appear to get something from taking part.

Take Tony Blair - supposedly the 'Mr Climate Change' of world politics. My favourite recent disconnect of his, was the recent exhortation to action: 'we have six years to save the planet'. Then, he went and rubber-stamped an airport expansion programme, and declined to hit aviation companies with extra fuel taxation.
His government has also adopted such a servile attitude towards motorists (since the fuel protests of 2000 threatened to bring his party down) that you might suspect a degree of fellatio was involved.

His opposition counterpart (David Cameron: Conservative Party) is running on a 'Green' platform, and never misses an opportunity to boost his environmental credentials via the media. So, we get plenty of photo-ops of him cycling to work at Parliament (until it emerged last week, that he has a Lexus following him all the way - carrying his shoes). Similarly, a few days ago he flew by jet to the arctic/antarctic (I forget which) to be photographed watching a glacier in the throes of melting - owing to global warming. This pointless joyride stunt was responsible for the emission of hundreds of tons of additional CO2. His most recent pronouncement? That people can become environmentally aware, and pro-Green, without ever having to make any sacrifices - at all -in their chosen 'lifestyles'.

In short - nothing will be done. The consumerist binge will be encouraged to continue right down to the wire. For the US - which depends more than most, on people's desire/requirement to be able to consume far more than they'll ever actually need - any suggestion of scaling back must be tantamount to economic heresy. Any such suggested course of action, in a nation dependent upon waste and profligacy, would inevitably invite its own collapse.
User avatar
untothislast
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 686
Joined: Sat 22 Oct 2005, 03:00:00
Location: European Capital of Kulcha 2008
Top

Re: Scary update from Hirsch

Postby shakespear1 » Thu 04 May 2006, 05:41:34

You hit it on the head. The politiko dance is the same in most developed countries and they do learn from each other as I see here in Poland. The problem is that it is a Club of Talking Heads that the crowd keeps reelecting. :)
Men argue, nature acts !
Voltaire

"...In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation."

Alan Greenspan
shakespear1
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1532
Joined: Fri 13 May 2005, 03:00:00

Re: Scary update from Hirsch

Postby clifman » Thu 04 May 2006, 09:54:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', ' ')At least you have the likes of Hirsch and Bartlett around, in the EU I don't know of a single person in politics that is clearly PO-aware with all its consequences.


This guy seems to be: http://www.energybulletin.net/11701.html
The generations of the 20th & early 21st centuries have decided to burn it all and leave nothing but charred remains for those who (may) follow - without apology.

Read William Catton, Derrick Jensen, Paul Chefurka, Daniel Quinn, Alexis Ziegler, Kevin Anderson, Jennifer Francis, Guy Mac...
User avatar
clifman
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed 28 Sep 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Virginia Blue Ridge, USA
Top

Re: Scary update from Hirsch

Postby gnm » Thu 04 May 2006, 10:47:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse', 'W')ith our lack of performance and inability to enact simple fixes on programs like Social Security and Medicare


No offense but there are no simple fixes to a pyramid/ponzi scheme.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Atlantean_Relic', 'I') was watching Mein Bush this morning. He was bragging how this is the best time in 5 year for college grads looking for jobs. How long will that hold? I wonder if I can convince my job to provide a free wheelbarrow for the upcoming pay days.


I could introduce him to more than a few highly qualified yet unemployed graduates.

-G
gnm
 
Top

PreviousNext

Return to Peak Oil Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests