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Pinnochio Putin and Porky Pies!?

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Re: Russia Turning into Dictatorship under Putin

Unread postby green_achers » Sun 02 Apr 2006, 23:45:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', '.')..the perils of Chavez's growing totalitarian powers over his country. ... unnecessary confrontations and bellicose rhetoric against the United States


Trying to be objective here, can you point me to some specific cases of "growing totalitarian powers?" I don't think "unnecessary confrontations and bellicose rhetoric" makes the case, in fact describes George Bush at least as well as it does Chavez.
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Re: Russia Turning into Dictatorship under Putin

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Mon 03 Apr 2006, 00:00:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'C')havez is making things worse for the relationship between Venezuela and the USA with more bellicose rhetoric and political stunts and spreading "fear of the US invasion" propaganda throughout the country and gearing up the poor citizens for a fictitious fight against the USA.


Considering that in 2002, the CIA attempted to overthrow Chavez's democratically elected government, and also considering all of the sabre rattling coming out of Washington now, I'd say some of Chavez's paranoia is justified.

Please explain exactly what about what chavez has done in the past 5 years is anything resembling "evil", without spouting some pre-fab Hannity soundbyte. Since you are so passionate about the subject, I'm sure you have ample documentation to back it up.
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Russia Turning into Dictatorship under Putin

Unread postby Russian_Cowboy » Mon 03 Apr 2006, 00:30:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', 'H')e's not a dictator in the sense of Saddam but yes, Putin will be democratically elected until such time as he decides to step down.


No, Putin cannot be elected three times in a row according to the Russian constitution. So, he should be stepping down in two years from now. But, he may also resign shortly before the elections and run for the president for the third time.

The principal mistake of the posters here is to make free elections a necessary and sufficient condition of a democracy. This is incorrect because the candidates running for power may be already carefully pre-selected by those in power. This was the case in the USSR where the candidates for the parliament seats were carefully pre-selected by the Communist Party. In a similar manner, Putin was carefully picked by Yeltsin. Yeltsin artificially boosted Putin's popularity among simple folks using the power of a president and control of the media.

Finally, Mr.Kasianov is deeply mistaken in that Putin can turn Russia into a dictatorship. IF the Russians want their country to be a dictatorship, this will happen regardless of Putin's will. The same is true about democracy.
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Re: Russia Turning into Dictatorship under Putin

Unread postby HonestPessimist » Mon 03 Apr 2006, 20:05:56

Let me state this to you:

Hugo Chavez: by siding with FIDEL CASTRO and looking him up as the "shining" example of leadership is a no-good scumbag in my book.

In other words, Hugo Chavez picks the wrong guy to pal around and venerate with.

Hugo Chavez = leftist scumbag and a shill for totalitarian lovers. I don't even f**king care he's doing "good thing" for the poor. The lives of the poor doesn't and shouldn't revolve around some well-off charismatic leaders like Chavez. Poor people must learn to take care of themselves first and above all, not to rely on high-n-mighty political leaderships of some ideological bents completely.

I'm poor and my life doesn't revolve some asinine, well-off charismatic leader who promises nothing but delusional BS and fantasy propaganda craps in exchange for some little loyalty. I'm only loyal to myself, my family, my guns and God through Jesus.

So there.

Threadbear, not surprised that you are an ideological-driven twit lapping up Chavez's boots. I actually wished Bush finish the job he did on Chavez. Siding with Fidel freaking Castro was the worst political move Chavez ever made.
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Re: Russia Turning into Dictatorship under Putin

Unread postby HonestPessimist » Mon 03 Apr 2006, 20:21:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'C')havez is making things worse for the relationship between Venezuela and the USA with more bellicose rhetoric and political stunts and spreading "fear of the US invasion" propaganda throughout the country and gearing up the poor citizens for a fictitious fight against the USA.


Considering that in 2002, the CIA attempted to overthrow Chavez's democratically elected government, and also considering all of the sabre rattling coming out of Washington now, I'd say some of Chavez's paranoia is justified.

Please explain exactly what about what chavez has done in the past 5 years is anything resembling "evil", without spouting some pre-fab Hannity soundbyte. Since you are so passionate about the subject, I'm sure you have ample documentation to back it up.


Chavez is following the same playbook that Fidel Castro employed in the first 2 decades of power over Cuba. I will bet you as long as Chavez is in power, there will be mass exodus of Venezuelans in the same manner that Cubans fled Castro's Cuba. Castro's days are numbering on Earth but he's certainly passing on his well-worn totalitarian playbook to his worthy successor: Hugo Chavez.
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Re: Russia Turning into Dictatorship under Putin

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Mon 03 Apr 2006, 20:47:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'C')havez is making things worse for the relationship between Venezuela and the USA with more bellicose rhetoric and political stunts and spreading "fear of the US invasion" propaganda throughout the country and gearing up the poor citizens for a fictitious fight against the USA.


Considering that in 2002, the CIA attempted to overthrow Chavez's democratically elected government, and also considering all of the sabre rattling coming out of Washington now, I'd say some of Chavez's paranoia is justified.

Please explain exactly what about what chavez has done in the past 5 years is anything resembling "evil", without spouting some pre-fab Hannity soundbyte. Since you are so passionate about the subject, I'm sure you have ample documentation to back it up.


Chavez is following the same playbook that Fidel Castro employed in the first 2 decades of power over Cuba. I will bet you as long as Chavez is in power, there will be mass exodus of Venezuelans in the same manner that Cubans fled Castro's Cuba. Castro's days are numbering on Earth but he's certainly passing on his well-worn totalitarian playbook to his worthy successor: Hugo Chavez.


So in other words, you've got nothing. 10-4, good buddy! USA! USA! USA! :roll:
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Re: Russia Turning into Dictatorship under Putin

Unread postby HonestPessimist » Mon 03 Apr 2006, 22:53:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', 'S')o in other words, you've got nothing. 10-4, good buddy! USA! USA! USA! :roll:


What an ignorant twit you are. I see in Chavez the same way you Bush-haters see in Bush. At least Bush doesn't prostitute himself to any foreign leader like Chavez did frequently.
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Re: Russia Turning into Dictatorship under Putin

Unread postby rogerhb » Mon 03 Apr 2006, 23:13:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'A')t least Bush doesn't prostitute himself to any foreign leader like Chavez did frequently.


You mean like Diplomatic hand-holding

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CSM', 'G')eorge Bush and Prince Abdullah stroll through spring flowers at the Bush ranch in Crawford, Texas.


They look cute together.
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Re: Russia Turning into Dictatorship under Putin

Unread postby gg3 » Tue 04 Apr 2006, 00:00:59

Let's see... the lefties here are all upset about authoritarian righties, and the righties here are all upset about authoritarian lefties. Hmm. What does that tell you?

IMHO both Putin and Chavez show authoritarian tendencies and should be kept an eye on.

As far as Chavez hanging out with Castro is concerned, can you honestly say that the United States has never had unsavory allies? I can name a few. So either it's OK for both, or it's not OK for both: which shall it be?

If I had to choose between living in Cuba and living in Russia (either present-day or the Soviet Empire), I would choose Cuba, for one reason: it appears to be a more lawful society, whereas Russia (and the USSR before it) appears to be suffering from endemic rampant corruption and lawlessness. Apologies to our Russian members here if that sounds too harsh and sweeping; and you're welcome to try to prove me wrong about that.

But, Hobson's choices aside, I'm sticking to the US because this is where I was born, where I have citizenship. And frankly because I love my country, warts and all. I can't understand how some people are willing to pull up stakes and cross borders rather than standing by their countries in hard times.

That being said, the case can also be made that the present US administration has dangerously authoritarian tendencies. Retired Supreme Court Justice O'Connor recently said as much in a speech, hinting at the risk of dictatorship. The D-word is strong medicine coming from someone with her background. Kevin Philips, star of Republican electoral strategies, has said as much. General Odom, NSA Director under Reagan, has said as much. Senator Obama, Democrat who voted for impeachment hearings for Clinton, has said as much.

And this is not a partisan issue: how would you feel about Unitary Executive President Hillary Rodham Clinton...? Cuts both ways, doesn't it?

The real question, the underlying question that we need to face, and face it in a nonpartisan manner, is: Can democracy survive in times of worsening resource scarcity? Are the ideals of liberty and equal justice under law strong enough? Or will we revert to various forms of tyranny and end up in a new feudal dark age?

I want to phrase it as "How can democracy survive..?", stating it as a "how" question rather than an "if" question: what's the path forward, what do we need to do to preserve our most cherished ideals and institutions? There was a time, back in the 1930s, when it seemed that dictatorship was the wave of the future. Hitler and Stalin were riding the waves of their early successes and looking to all the world like the shape of things to come. Fortunately it didn't turn out that way. But the future won't necessarily repeat the past; we can take nothing for granted; and failure is not an option.
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Re: Russia Turning into Dictatorship under Putin

Unread postby Kickinthegob » Tue 04 Apr 2006, 00:24:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I') find the most peculiar type of 'democracy' is the rigging of elections. It's common in banana republics like the US.

Good point. Exit polls are a tool to detect fraudulent elections. I hate to back up HP's assesment of Chavez but this article is rather interesting...
Exit polls in Venezuela
...but then again, the last US election was obviously fraudulent and maybe even the one before that. The lack of US media coverage was a travesty. Political systems are corrupted all to hell, IMO - libertarian policy and reduction in government is the only thing that can help stop the slide because no matter what country you live in - you are not immune anymore!
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Re: Russia Turning into Dictatorship under Putin

Unread postby rogerhb » Tue 04 Apr 2006, 00:37:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Michael Barone', 'V')enezuela's President Hugo Chavez has been running an authoritarian regime. By various means he has taken control of the legislature, the courts, the armed services and the police. His thugs have been intimidating and even killing the regime's opponents


Could have been about Bush (esp if you consider who all the weapon's grade anthrax in letters were addressed to....).

So why are we no longer supposed to trust Carter's exit polls?

Me thinks everyone has an agenda.

Strange, thought that this thread refered to Russia.
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
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Re: Russia Turning into Dictatorship under Putin

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Tue 04 Apr 2006, 10:59:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', 'S')o in other words, you've got nothing. 10-4, good buddy! USA! USA! USA! :roll:


What an ignorant twit you are. I see in Chavez the same way you Bush-haters see in Bush. At least Bush doesn't prostitute himself to any foreign leader like Chavez did frequently.


Insult me all you like, you've still brought nothing to the table to prove your assertion that "Chavez is evil". He's making deals with his neighbors, updating his military, protecting his nation's resources and feeding the poor. He's not engaging in militaristic expansionism and he's LOVED by his people. That doesn't sound evil, that sounds...responsible.

You have also mischaracterized me. Sure, I don't like Bush. I've never denied that. But I didn't like Clinton selling secrets to the Chinese and bombing asprin factories, either. It's not about "liking" one party over the other, it's about recognizing that BOTH parties are run by the same shadowy group of corporations and private money. Can democracy last through peak oil? It's been dead for years already. The facade is just finally becoming transparent enough for even the McMorons to see through it. Apparently it's not thin enough for all, though. Give it a few more years.

As for Bush not prostituting himself to foriegn leaders, what about the Saudis? IIRC, he was also drooling all overf the Dubai ports thing as well. Then there's the way he's been playing kissy-face with Pakistan, despite the fact that we KNOW bin Laden has been passing over the border unfettered for 5 YEARS now. Then there's Israel...Columbia...

And to bring us back on topic, Putin may be a would-be dictator, but he's a thousand times better than Yeltsin. Yeltsin's policies destroyed the post-collapse economy (but he took pretty good care of his friends), saw billions of dollars worth of military hardware to literally walk off the shelves (much of it finding it's way into the hands of people we now call terrorists), and allowed rampant corruption of a nature so severe, that when 51 members of Yeltsin's inner circle were brought up on charges (45 convictions), Yeltsin proceeded to FIRE the chair of the anti-corruption committee. He even violated the constitution HE WROTE less than a year after he wrote it when he fired the Supreme soviet and the Congress of People's Deputies.

Putin, on the other hand, won his second term in an election that was declared fair by international observers (although the state-owned media did a lot of one-sided campaigning and probably tainted the results). The country has gone from being bankrupt, to being a legitimate economic power. Criminals at the head of major corporations (not just Yukos) have been arrested and tried for various crimes, and perhaps most importantly, the people aren't waiting in bread lines any more. Of course, none of that forgives his actions in Chechnya, but let's be honest with ourselves. No major world power has ever existed that did not engage in war crimes.
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Re: Russia Turning into Dictatorship under Putin

Unread postby threadbear » Tue 04 Apr 2006, 15:25:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Michael Barone', 'V')enezuela's President Hugo Chavez has been running an authoritarian regime. By various means he has taken control of the legislature, the courts, the armed services and the police. His thugs have been intimidating and even killing the regime's opponents


Could have been about Bush (esp if you consider who all the weapon's grade anthrax in letters were addressed to....).

So why are we no longer supposed to trust Carter's exit polls?

Me thinks everyone has an agenda.

Strange, thought that this thread refered to Russia.


Who is Micheal Barone, who are his backers, does he have an agenda, or is he just a suck-up?
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Re: Russia Turning into Dictatorship under Putin

Unread postby HonestPessimist » Tue 04 Apr 2006, 20:11:27

Let me state this to you Chavez-lovers:

CHAVEZ CHOOSE TO SIDE WITH AND FOLLOW TO THE END ONE OF THE WORLD'S WORST AND OVERT HUMAN RIGHT VIOLATORS: FIDEL CASTRO.

I don't care for your idiotarian, Chavez-worshipping comments. Fidel Castro is ranked right up with Nicolae Ceausescu, Pol Pot, Mobuto Sesko, Mao Zedong, Leonid Brezhnev, Kim Il-Sung and Stalin as the worst human right violators ever.

And Hugo Chavez is following the same path as Castro and you Chavez-worshippers are living in a denial and ignorance. :x

Any poor people blindly follow a leader like Chavez are just unfortunately deluded. Just like some of the most loyal and rich Bush supporters. :P
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Re: Russia Turning into Dictatorship under Putin

Unread postby rogerhb » Tue 04 Apr 2006, 20:21:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', '[')b]CHAVEZ CHOOSE TO SIDE WITH AND FOLLOW TO THE END ONE OF THE WORLD'S WORST AND OVERT HUMAN RIGHT VIOLATORS: FIDEL CASTRO.

I don't care for your idiotarian, Chavez-worshipping comments. Fidel Castro is ranked right up with Nicolae Ceausescu, Pol Pot, Mobuto Sesko, Mao Zedong, Leonid Brezhnev, Kim Il-Sung and Stalin as the worst human right violators ever.


Hm, what about associating with the Shah of Iran, Hitler, Pinochet and Saddam Hussein....

HP, you've got a real problem with democracy, dontchya?
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Re: Russia Turning into Dictatorship under Putin

Unread postby HonestPessimist » Tue 04 Apr 2006, 20:30:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'S')enator Obama, Democrat who voted for impeachment hearings for Clinton, has said as much.


Um, Senator Obama was never in the US Congress at the time of impeachment hearings for Clinton. He was an Illinois state senator at the time and lost a Representative seat in 2000. His being Senator is his first run in the US Congress since he was sworn-in in 2005.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', '
')And this is not a partisan issue: how would you feel about Unitary Executive President Hillary Rodham Clinton...? Cuts both ways, doesn't it?


In my personal opinion, Bush is actually setting up extraordinary and total executive powers for Hillary Clinton when opportunity arises.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', '
')The real question, the underlying question that we need to face, and face it in a nonpartisan manner, is: Can democracy survive in times of worsening resource scarcity? Are the ideals of liberty and equal justice under law strong enough? Or will we revert to various forms of tyranny and end up in a new feudal dark age?


These are good questions that are yet to be answered when the time has come for the USA in the future. The closest thing the USA have experienced near-dictatorship not only once but twice:

The administrations of Abraham Lincoln and the 4-time administrations of Franklin D. Roosevelt.
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Re: Russia Turning into Dictatorship under Putin

Unread postby rogerhb » Tue 04 Apr 2006, 20:45:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'I')n my personal opinion, Bush is actually setting up extraordinary and total executive powers for Hillary Clinton when opportunity arises.


Ha, ha, ha, ha. If it's true it's as funny as hell, if it's untrue its funny you could think that way.

Why the US goes through the amazing expense and effort pretending it has two different parties is beyond me.
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Re: Russia Turning into Dictatorship under Putin

Unread postby HonestPessimist » Tue 04 Apr 2006, 20:46:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', 'I')nsult me all you like, you've still brought nothing to the table to prove your assertion that "Chavez is evil". He's making deals with his neighbors, updating his military, protecting his nation's resources and feeding the poor. He's not engaging in militaristic expansionism and he's LOVED by his people. That doesn't sound evil, that sounds...responsible.


No, that is to me the perfect opportunist.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', 'A')s for Bush not prostituting himself to foriegn leaders, what about the Saudis?


It's typical that you know absolutely ZERO about the business of oil politics between the USA and the Saudis. Relationships with the Saudis goes all the way back to Franklin D. Roosevelt and King Saud. The reason for Bush to hold hands with the Saudi ruler is for public perception and news consumption for the American public, stock markets and oil industry observers in the times of rising gas prices the past 2 years: the relationship between the USA and Saudi Arabia is still strong, in spite of internal and external differences. Bush is an oilman, so is Crown Prince Abdullah, the de facto head of state in King Fahd's absence. Both know the inside business of oil politics, of which you and I know little of it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', 'P')utin, on the other hand, won his second term in an election that was declared fair by international observers (although the state-owned media did a lot of one-sided campaigning and probably tainted the results). The country has gone from being bankrupt, to being a legitimate economic power. Criminals at the head of major corporations (not just Yukos) have been arrested and tried for various crimes, and perhaps most importantly, the people aren't waiting in bread lines any more. Of course, none of that forgives his actions in Chechnya, but let's be honest with ourselves. No major world power has ever existed that did not engage in war crimes.


Not bad for an ex-KGB crony. On the outside, that is all intended. On the inside, a whole different story suggested otherwise. Earlier, when I mentioned a powerful oligarchy backing Putin, there is no such group by any name, just some private well-regarded or little known powerful power-brokers with deep ties to the KGB having vested interests in Putin's leadership and the future of Russia.
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Re: Russia Turning into Dictatorship under Putin

Unread postby rogerhb » Tue 04 Apr 2006, 20:59:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'W')ho is Micheal Barone, who are his backers, does he have an agenda, or is he just a suck-up?


No idea, it was in Kickinthegob's link Exit polls in Venezuela.
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Re: Russia Turning into Dictatorship under Putin

Unread postby HonestPessimist » Tue 04 Apr 2006, 22:16:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', '[')b]CHAVEZ CHOOSE TO SIDE WITH AND FOLLOW TO THE END ONE OF THE WORLD'S WORST AND OVERT HUMAN RIGHT VIOLATORS: FIDEL CASTRO.

I don't care for your idiotarian, Chavez-worshipping comments. Fidel Castro is ranked right up with Nicolae Ceausescu, Pol Pot, Mobuto Sesko, Mao Zedong, Leonid Brezhnev, Kim Il-Sung and Stalin as the worst human right violators ever.


Hm, what about associating with the Shah of Iran, Hitler, Pinochet and Saddam Hussein....

HP, you've got a real problem with democracy, dontchya?


Nope, I got a problem with morons like you defending the worst human rights violators. :P
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