[Aaron]

Live fast, die young, leave a good-lookin corpse.

Most regulars here are familiar with the concept of Jevon's Paradox. (See thread this forum)

Basically what Jevon said, was that energy savings from conservation or improved efficiency are absorbed by increased usage.

That people will find ways to use available energy to the extent of their ability to acquire it.

Some clever posters will no doubt assert that this principal does not apply during times where overall energy supplies are declining. The inability of these folks to grasp relative comparisons or measurements is self-evident to everyone who actually understood the material you were exposed to in Algebra I.

If ya can't understand this simple concept... nothing I write here is likely to change that.

But for those among you who do comprehend this very simple idea, I'd like to offer an extended consequence of this argument.

Not only are the practices of conservation, recycling & similar methods ineffective, but I assert that they actually contribute to the problem.

Worse... the only benefit from these activities are seen by the individuals or groups which employ them.

And the final insult is of course, that it's all done under the guise of altruism.

The reality is that while you benefit financially from your conserving ways, you do so at the expense of our collective future by perpetuating the myth of eternal growth & prosperity.

Like an already bankrupt consumer transferring their debt to yet another credit card, & proudly announcing how clever they are, you conservationists reveal your true mindset through your selfish activities.

You would seek to perpetuate the current system of insane growth & ignore the reality of exponential math. (Another concept from basic mathematics which seems to elude many of you).

Raised on the delusions of prior generations who didn't understand this idea anymore than you do, you self-righteously proclaim your moral superiority as Eco-friendly, low-impact, energy misers on a mission to save the planet.

The truth is more disturbing.

After generations borrowing against the future, peak oil appears to collect on this cumulative debt.

And predictably, many of you react in the only way you know...

Things look dicey... so make sure you get yours.

People...

It's time to let go of the naive fantasies of our ancestors; grow up & face the truth of our situation.

Oil is NOT the problem here... neither is Peak Oil.

Humans using oil is not the problem either.

The problem is that we want more & more & more...

Well guess what?

You can't have any more.

But some (read: most) of you refuse to accept this reality, and are seeking new ways to perpetuate the great lie.

The greatest lie ever told...

I'll end this post with a favorite quote... from hallowed antiquity.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he percentage you're paying is too high priced
While you're living beyond all you're means
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams
But today you just read that the man was shot dead
By a gun that didn't make any noise
But it wasn't the bullet that laid him to rest
Was the low spark of high-heeled boys, high-heeled boys

If I gave you everything that I owned
And asked for nothing in return
Would you do the same for me as I would for you
Or take me for a ride
And strip me of everything including my pride
But spirit is something that no one destroys

[clover]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')People...

It's time to let go of the naive fantasies of our ancestors; grow up & face the truth of our situation.

Oil is NOT the problem here... neither is Peak Oil.

Humans using oil is not the problem either.

The problem is that we want more & more & more...

Well guess what?

You can't have any more.

But some (read: most) of you refuse to accept this reality, and are seeking new ways to perpetuate the great lie.

[killJOY]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')orse... the only benefit from these activities are seen by the individuals or groups which employ them.

And the final insult is of course, that it's all done under the guise of altruism.

[mrflora]

That's what I like about you guys, you always start my day off with a smile!

Say, what'cha growin' there, killJOY?

Regards,
M.R.F.

[Liamj]

If thinking recycling alone (ev even with Sierra Club subscription, certified organics, inner urban cycling), makes current average consumption moral or feasible long term, then i agree. But if recycling (meaning first refuse sorting) while moving yourself and those around you to lower levels of resource use, then i see it as small but positive. If nothing else it reaquaints us with the material reality of our lives, and 'flush & forget' is one of the worst lobotomies we've collectively embraced.

As to Jevons paradox (aren't you presuming somewhat on the price advantage?), I am not my brothers keeper. If i use less, it is fatuous to think it is my doing that others go out and use the surplus, so "making it worse" is just headline grabbing. Maybe others will use it better - maybe they wont use it at all, end of the day, why is that my responsibility? If you're desperate they don't burn your saving, maybe you should go talk to them about that. Maybe give them your TV so another doesn't have to get made. But being dog-in-the-manger doesn't leave any opportunity for a better outcome.
As already said, there is evol. fitness too. It is maladaptive to continue living a petroleum dependant life, makes you unprepared for what will be.

[killJOY]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ay, what'cha growin' there, killJOY?

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') don't know why this post is in the "Conservation an Efficiency" forum. It should be in the "Hall of Flames" because it is a big "f*&k'you" to the good people who make an effort.

[killJOY]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') built a cohousing project on polluted city land, removed 2,000 cubic yards of diesel soaked soil, replaced that with another 4,000 yards of good clean top soil and now grow my food on it.

I live in town, walk don't commute. And the super-efficient refrigerator I use is half the size of your electron-sucking pig. I don't need to advertise my moral superiority-it is obvious to most people with half a brain. And guess what? Just by being nice and friendly and regular and not preaching, people take my lifestyle as an example and change a little.

[Jack]

Excellent thread!

I used to find all the hopeful nonsense annoying - now, it's simply amusing. Those who believe they can save the system, whether through conservation, or biomass, or switch grass - or shuttles to Jupiter - simply do not understand.

As for me, I consume and shall continue to do so. I will prepare as best I can. And in the end, when the starving hordes come to take what they can, I shall give them a memorable welcome.

[coyote]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'R')aised on the delusions of prior generations who didn't understand this idea anymore than you do, you self-righteously proclaim your moral superiority as Eco-friendly, low-impact, energy misers on a mission to save the planet.

[clv101]

Personally I think Jevons paradox (sometimes called rebound effect) breaks down in a world where net available energy supply is reducing. If conservation of energy doesn't increase your wealth (since energy price has gone up) and/or if conservation doesn't reduce the price of energy (since energy total supply has fallen by at least as much as you conserved) then Jevons paradox simply doesn't apply post peak.

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')isten I don't hurt folks and I do the best to change this system. That is what cohousing is supposed to be about. Sharing stuff like the back yard, commercial kitchen, extra bedrooms, shop, kids playroom. It is a new system. I am not promulgating the old system.

[clv101]

I was kind of expecting that... but it's not lack of algebraic comprehension or a solid understanding of the exponential function.

So why is conservation not good? Or infact actually bad? Can you elaborate?

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clv101', 'P')ersonally I think Jevons paradox (sometimes called rebound effect) breaks down in a world where net available energy supply is reducing. If conservation of energy doesn't increase your wealth (since energy price has gone up) and/or if conservation doesn't reduce the price of energy (since energy total supply has fallen by at least as much as you conserved) then Jevons paradox simply doesn't apply post peak.

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clv101', 'I') was kind of expecting that... but it's not lack of algebraic comprehension or a solid understanding of the exponential function.

So why is conservation not good? Or infact actually bad? Can you elaborate?