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THE Palestine Thread (merged)

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Re: Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Unread postby rogerhb » Tue 14 Mar 2006, 22:28:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'P')lease refrain from any asinine suggestion that the US is committing "atrocities" in Iraq. The mainstreamed but biased media tends to spoonfed you


An illegal war is an atrocity. Starting a war is the ultimate war crime, as it includes all other war-crimes. The invasion of Iraq was an illegal war.

But that only applies if you believe international law has any standing.

Blah blah blah liberal media blah blah blah is no defence.
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Re: Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Unread postby shakespear1 » Wed 15 Mar 2006, 05:15:09

If you put the dots together it is clear what was done.

Discredit Hamas, pure and simple. Make them look bad and push them to the extreme.

Now lets make bets if it will work. I say NO.
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Re: Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Unread postby HonestPessimist » Wed 15 Mar 2006, 14:03:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'I') presume you're refering to the US Army?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he shortfalls are even worse than they appear because the US Army has lowered standards and increased financial incentives for enlistment over the last couple of years. The lowering of standards is causing problems out in the field.

The less qualified people cause a lot more problems for officers and NCOs. More time has to be spent on training and supervising these people, and there are more disciplinary problems as well. The standards have been creeping downward for the last two years, and the complaints about the results are starting to come in from the field.

Even the lowered standards are still high enough that recruiters have to help recruits cheat to pass tests.


US Army Recruiting Shortfalls Are Growing


That is why the problem of recruiting had to do with the absence of quality recruits, not because of the war in Iraq. This is not a singular problem with the US military, every other military in other countries have the same quality recruiting problem. Russia have the worst of all.

Are you assuming that all American kids should be bright and wonderful? Yes, some are, some are not. It's the same with every other country. The difference is that we have a voluntary military system: we are not forcing young kids to join the military services, the kids make the decision for themselves.
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Re: Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Unread postby HonestPessimist » Wed 15 Mar 2006, 14:18:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kickinthegob', 'I') would argue the US IS commiting atrocities in Iraq. Iraqbodycount lists over 30,000 civilian casualties, the number when you factor in sanctions is probably over a million - all for WMD that were oddly enough never found. Throw in 4 million pounds of depleted uranium munitions on top of it, and Iraq is a radioactive waste dump. Believe me, the science of war has evolved into the greatest atrocity machine ever created! The mininukes will be the icing on the cake - asinine indeed! Sorry for offtopic post :razz:


Are you talking this: http://www.iraqbodycounts.com/?? All I see are links to sex sites, other non-sex sites, web-cam sites and so on but nothing on body counts in Iraq.

Fictitious site. Civilian casualty in a military operation or terrorist attack is unfortunate in any case.

Check out this one from an Iraqi dentist: http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/ (loved the pic of Al-Sadr picking his nose on television! :lol: )
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Re: Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Unread postby HonestPessimist » Wed 15 Mar 2006, 14:27:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '[')b]An illegal war is an atrocity. Starting a war is the ultimate war crime, as it includes all other war-crimes. The invasion of Iraq was an illegal war.


Illegal to a degree specifically to the intent. What would you do if you're the President of the US and you have Saddam Hussein still in power? Do nothing? Diplomatic efforts did nothing to dissuade Saddam.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'B')ut that only applies if you believe international law has any standing.


There is no such thing as international law that must be applicable to the US. Nazi Germany never attack or threaten the USA in the 1930s but we went to war against them anyway.
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Re: Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 15 Mar 2006, 16:37:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'I')llegal to a degree specifically to the intent. What would you do if you're the President of the US and you have Saddam Hussein still in power? Do nothing? Diplomatic efforts did nothing to dissuade Saddam.


The answer is yes. The United Nations is primarily to resolve disputes between nations, it's remit is not to stop civil wars and local attrocities. Saddam was propped up by the West during the Iraq-Iran war so he is the West's monster.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'T')here is no such thing as international law that must be applicable to the US.


Completely untrue, international treaties signed by the United States are binding law of the United States, that includes the Geneva Conventions and The Hague protocols.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'N')azi Germany never attack or threaten the USA in the 1930s but we went to war against them anyway.


And the US did not go to war in the 1930s. Japan declared war on the US late 1941, Germany allied to Japan declared war on the US, hence a state of war existed between the US and Germany.
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Re: Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Unread postby HonestPessimist » Wed 15 Mar 2006, 20:46:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'T')he answer is yes. The United Nations is primarily to resolve disputes between nations, it's remit is not to stop civil wars and local attrocities. Saddam was propped up by the West during the Iraq-Iran war so he is the West's monster.


Has much of the world improved considerably since the UN came to being? Hell, no. UN is incapable of resolving international disputes, no matter how much you believed in this rose-colored garbage called the UN. The fact the West "propped up" Saddam is a political by-product of the Cold War between the US and USSR. Actually, it was the KGB that got to Saddam first in the 1960s before the MI-6 and CIA realized it. The Ba'ath Party have received considerable supports from the Soviet Union due to their shared ideology of international socialism. How are you going to explain that 93% of military arms Saddam received from the Soviet Union, France, Warsaw Pact nations, and China over the decades? (That fact is backed up by data from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'C')ompletely untrue, international treaties signed by the United States are binding law of the United States, that includes the Geneva Conventions and The Hague protocols.


Okay, I give you this credit for correction. But I am not a believer in international law. It's arbitrary and put any nation in a difficult position to defend itself, even nations were signatories to it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '
')And the US did not go to war in the 1930s. Japan declared war on the US late 1941, Germany allied to Japan declared war on the US, hence a state of war existed between the US and Germany.


You misunderstood me. When people like you ranting that Iraq never attacks or invade the USA or harm American lives and that the US invaded Iraq "illegally", I have to remind people like you that the Nazis never attacks or invade the USA but we declared war against them anyway on the account of the Imperialist Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. It doesn't matter whether Germany is allied to Japan or not, the US declared war against both of them anyway.

However, Iraq have repeatedly attacked American lives during the 1990s - US Air Force pilots enforcing the No-Fly Zone in Iraq came under attacks from Iraq's ground-to-air batteries along with repeated incursions in the areas of Iraq under protected by the US/UK/France military enforcing the No-Fly Zone.
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Re: Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Unread postby rogerhb » Thu 16 Mar 2006, 04:06:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'U')N is incapable of resolving international disputes, no matter how much you believed in this rose-colored garbage called the UN.


And without it it would be so much better, of course.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'O')kay, I give you this credit for correction. But I am not a believer in international law. It's arbitrary and put any nation in a difficult position to defend itself, even nations were signatories to it.


Untrue, nations have the right to self defence. A country does not require explicit UN approval to repel attackers. Nations do not have the right to aggression nor pre-emptive wars.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'H')owever, Iraq have repeatedly attacked American lives during the 1990s - US Air Force pilots enforcing the No-Fly Zone in Iraq came under attacks from Iraq's ground-to-air batteries along with repeated incursions in the areas of Iraq under protected by the US/UK/France military enforcing the No-Fly Zone.


Who's "No-Fly Zone"? It was not mandated by the UN. Even under sanctions, Iraq still had the right to self defence, remember, that right that you claim nations should have. Now which group of nations was it that were regularly bombing Iraq during the sanctions period?
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Re: Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Unread postby HonestPessimist » Fri 17 Mar 2006, 19:37:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'U')N is incapable of resolving international disputes, no matter how much you believed in this rose-colored garbage called the UN.


And without it it would be so much better, of course.


Of course, we can all live without that big pile of bile that is known as the UN.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'U')ntrue, nations have the right to self defence. A country does not require explicit UN approval to repel attackers. Nations do not have the right to aggression nor pre-emptive wars.


Nations such as the US have the right to defend itself by going after terrorists or hostile nations that knowingly harbored or aided them with money, weapons and such. I would rather take the fight to the enemy than to let the enemy fight us at home.

You, of course, would rather American citizens suffer the brunt of terrorist attacks at home while you're sitting in the comfort of your armchairs in New Zealand?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'W')ho's "No-Fly Zone"? It was not mandated by the UN. Even under sanctions, Iraq still had the right to self defence, remember, that right that you claim nations should have. Now which group of nations was it that were regularly bombing Iraq during the sanctions period?


That above showed your incredible ignorance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_no-fly_zones

Perhaps you don't care about the lives of the Kurds and the Shi'ites in Iraq under Saddam at all. You just show your true colors. Nice going, buddy. :(

I believe that everybody should live in freedom without fear or terror from anybody. Obviously you don't.
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Re: Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Unread postby rogerhb » Mon 20 Mar 2006, 03:30:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'O')f course, we can all live without that big pile of bile that is known as the UN.


Apparently we can't. Ignoring the UN and killing people doesn't tally with "we can all live" now does it?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'N')ations such as the US have the right to defend itself by going after terrorists or hostile nations that knowingly harbored or aided them with money, weapons and such. I would rather take the fight to the enemy than to let the enemy fight us at home.


When did Iraq attack the US? When did Iraq sponsor terrorists to attack the US?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'Y')ou, of course, would rather American citizens suffer the brunt of terrorist attacks at home while you're sitting in the comfort of your armchairs in New Zealand?


I would rather Americans became isolationist, took all their troops home, and stopped meddling in other countries affairs.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'W')ho's "No-Fly Zone"?

That above showed your incredible ignorance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_no-fly_zones

Shows you did not read your own link.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wiki', 'T')he United States and Britain argued that the patrols were authorized under U.N. Security Council Resolution 688, adopted April 5, 1991. However, the text "condemns the repression of the Iraqi civilian population in many parts of Iraq", but in no way mentions no-fly zones.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'P')erhaps you don't care about the lives of the Kurds and the Shi'ites in Iraq under Saddam at all. You just show your true colors. Nice going, buddy. :(

You mean like the kind of care the US was giving to the region during the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s, arming both sides and happily selling chemicals and helicopters to the Iraqis, while also carrying with the Iran-Contra deals?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'I') believe that everybody should live in freedom without fear or terror from anybody.

Unlike your government that you (plural) voted for with your freedoms.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'O')bviously you don't.

Now where did I ever say that?
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Re: Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Unread postby Kickinthegob » Mon 20 Mar 2006, 06:43:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'F')ictitious site. Civilian casualty in a military operation or terrorist attack is unfortunate in any case.

Your kinda funny sometimes - "Fictitious site" :lol:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ ...but I am sure I didn't really have to tell you that and it really is an atrocity. With your comment above I can almost feel the pain and suffering this has caused you, good thing your alternate techno-reality and on demand tititainment keep you well insulated from what your elected regime is doing in other countries. Like the man says:
“We don’t do body counts”
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Re: Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Unread postby rogerhb » Mon 20 Mar 2006, 19:23:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', 'C')ivilian casualty in a military operation or terrorist attack is unfortunate in any case.


Glad we've got that cleared up, the casualties at the WTC were just unfortunate.
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Re: Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Unread postby rogerhb » Mon 20 Mar 2006, 19:50:04

More from Jimmy: It's not too late for lasting peace in the Middle East

It's amazing that the solution can be summed up so simply yet be denied/obfuscated by so many.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')srael should withdraw from the occupied territories, and its right to exist must be recognised by all Arabs
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Re: Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sun 26 Mar 2006, 02:12:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('coyote', '
')I admit I don't know a whole lot about the subject, but it sure seems to me like the Arabs really don't have a whole lot to gripe about concerning the existence of Israel -- considering that Jewish leaders originally agreed to share the land with the Palestinians, but the Arabs decided that wasn't good enough. Or is there something I'm missing here?

Do you own any land? I would like to "share" it with you. Of course, like the Jews, I have no intention of paying you for it.
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Re: Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Unread postby coyote » Thu 30 Mar 2006, 03:11:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('coyote', '
')I admit I don't know a whole lot about the subject, but it sure seems to me like the Arabs really don't have a whole lot to gripe about concerning the existence of Israel -- considering that Jewish leaders originally agreed to share the land with the Palestinians, but the Arabs decided that wasn't good enough. Or is there something I'm missing here?

Do you own any land? I would like to "share" it with you. Of course, like the Jews, I have no intention of paying you for it.

Both Jews and Palestinians have lived on that land for a long, long time. Yes, it should have been shared between them, as it belonged to both peoples. One side agreed to share, but the other side didn't. Now we've got a huge mess. It really seems to me that the whole thing could have been defused right at the beginning, so easily.
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Re: Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Unread postby Doly » Thu 30 Mar 2006, 03:27:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('coyote', 'I')t really seems to me that the whole thing could have been defused right at the beginning, so easily.


Have you read "Oh, Jerusalem!"? It becomes absolutely clear that the situation, right from the beginning, was explosive. There was never any common ground between both sides (both literally and metaphorically).
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Re: Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Unread postby rogerhb » Thu 30 Mar 2006, 04:56:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'T')here was never any common ground between both sides.


I think the problem was the ground was actually common between the two sides.
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Re: Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Unread postby Starvid » Thu 30 Mar 2006, 07:40:15

Peace.

How are the Israelis and the Palestinians ever going to reach peace? What realistic options are there in the current situation? I believe there are three options.

1. Integration. This what we have had for a long time. Suicide bombings and Israeli helicopter attacks. Continued occupation and terrorism. Status quo. It's bad, but it could be worse.

2. Cleansing. The second option. The conflict ends when either the Israelis or the Palestinians are all killed or driven from the area. This idea is supported by some Israeli extremist parties and many Palestinians, including the current Hamas government.

3. Separation. This what Kadima does right now. Build a wall to stop suicide bombings. Without suicide bombings no retalitory attacks will be required. Create permanent borders. Remove most of the West bank colonies. End the occupation of all areas and annex some of them. As far as I am concerned this is the best solution.

While negotiations with the Palestinians are impossible (because Israel broke the back of the PA and supported Hamas (Divide et impera)) Israel will have to do this unilaterally.

More reading:
http://www.defense-and-society.org/dni_ ... israel.htm
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le8403.htm

What is interesting in this third link is that van Crefeld was wrong. He thought Sharon (and Olmert) were preparing the expulsion and deportion of the Palestinians while Sharon all along was working according to van Crefelds own prefered plan. It gives an ironic twist to what Van Crefeld says in the interview below:

Interviewer: Does that mean that the Palestinians stay within the borders?

Creveld: No, it means that they all get deported. The people who strive for this are waiting only for the right man and the right time.

[...]

Ariel Sharon is leader. He never improvises: he always has a plan.
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Re: Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Unread postby duke3522 » Thu 30 Mar 2006, 10:51:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', '
')There is no such thing as international law that must be applicable to the US. Nazi Germany never attack or threaten the USA in the 1930s but we went to war against them anyway.


Please know your basic history. Germany declared war on the US on 12/10/41. Also, for a least a year prior to this the US and German U-boats were fighting an undeclared war in the Western Atlantic.

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Re: Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Thu 30 Mar 2006, 12:26:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', '
')1. Integration. This what we have had for a long time. Suicide bombings and Israeli helicopter attacks. Continued occupation and terrorism. Status quo. It's bad, but it could be worse.

2. Cleansing. The second option. The conflict ends when either the Israelis or the Palestinians are all killed or driven from the area. This idea is supported by some Israeli extremist parties and many Palestinians, including the current Hamas government.

3. Separation. This what Kadima does right now. Build a wall to stop suicide bombings. Without suicide bombings no retalitory attacks will be required. Create permanent borders. Remove most of the West bank colonies. End the occupation of all areas and annex some of them. As far as I am concerned this is the best solution.
Option 3 does look doable, but in my estimation, it will either be the rise of new generations that don't want to fight anymore that will end this, or it will be the changed atmosphere after the world realizes there isn't enough oil/water/food/etc and the killing starts bigtime. Then it will be option 2. There isn't any guarantee who will win if it goes all out, but I would bet on the Israelis.
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