[elroy]

I think it's important to distinguish between the political arm of Hamas, and the militant arm. The methods of the political arm have been good, with charity, security, health and schooling being supplied by them. The militant arm is the one we're having issues with.

[gebregebremarian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('elroy', 'I') think it's important to distinguish between the political arm of Hamas, and the militant arm. The methods of the political arm have been good, with charity, security, health and schooling being supplied by them. The militant arm is the one we're having issues with.

[americandream]

Bad and evil are relative to you, your conditioning and your wallet.

[Luckystars]

edit

[gebregebremarian]

I prefer the Paul Craig Roberts view to that of the shrill, democracy worshiping crowd:



Read on


As for you, who claims that "bad" and "evil" are "relative" terms, I'd merely postulate that a group of thugs that vote for another group of thugs who are bent on the liquidation of a people--Jews--by virtue of their choice demonstrate the very concrete, historical, rational meaning of bad and evil, Derridaeske thinking notwithstanding.

[Leanan]

Democracy is more than elections.

I'm reminded of stories a Russian colleague used to tell me. After glasnost, they held an election in his town. After the results were announced, the winners' reaction was, "Let's beat up the people who voted against us!"

He also said that they suffered terrible car crashes. Before glasnost, if you ran a red light, the police would pull you over and break your arm. When they stopped doing that, people saw no reason to obey traffic signals any more. They'd blow through red lights at 80 mph.

Trying to "export" democracy to societies that don't have the basis for democracy in place is just asking for trouble.

And the Palestinian problem really is intractable. I've no doubt many Palestinians would be thrilled if all the Jews just dropped dead. OTOH, they've got reason to feel that way. I've no doubt if what happened to them, happened to us, we'd behave similarly.

Even if Israel succeeds in divesting itself of the West Bank, they still have the problem of the Israeli Arabs, who are having more kids than Jews, and are growing increasingly restive. When it comes right down to it, you cannot be a "Jewish democracy." They are going to have to choose.

[gebregebremarian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', '
')
Even if Israel succeeds in divesting itself of the West Bank, they still have the problem of the Israeli Arabs, who are having more kids than Jews, and are growing increasingly restive. When it comes right down to it, you cannot be a "Jewish democracy." They are going to have to choose.

[Leanan]

Yeah, the Arabs are as much to blame as the Jews. If the Arabs hadn't been determined to push Israel into the sea, the Palestinians would have their own state by now. Or be part of Jordan. The neighboring states have refused to absorb the Palestinians because they saw accepting the Palestinians as accepting Israel's land grab. So Palestinians have been living in "temporary refugee camps" sixty years.

If it weren't for peak oil, I might have some hope for the region. But with peak oil looming, I don't see how this can end well. For anyone.

[gary_malcolm]

The Arab/Palestinian demographic IS THE ISSUE and the one and only reason the two state solution is being pushed forward without regard to property, morality or interantional law. The only way a pure jewish state (sound familiar?) can be visualized in 50 - 100 years is if non-jews are outside the wall, otherwise the populace will just vote the Jewish state down...(<sarcasm>Yeah Democracy!</sarcasm>).

If this works, Hamas-Fatah-Whoever, won't make a whit of difference. A 'civil war' outside the borders of Israel is simple to ignore or just toss grenades into. Never mind that the 'final solution' should sound remarkably uncomfortable for a nation forged from the ruins of the holocaust.

[pastthepeak]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gary_malcolm', 'N')ever mind that the 'final solution' should sound remarkably uncomfortable for a nation forged from the ruins of the holocaust.

[thor]

Hamas plans to use Sharia as guide for laws
By Mohammed Assadi

RAMALLAH (Reuters) - Hamas will use sharia as a guide for legislation after winning Palestinian elections, but has no plan to enforce strict Islamic law, close bars or stop men and women mixing in public, a senior leader said on Sunday.

Hamas's shock victory in last week's parliamentary election has stirred concerns among more liberal Palestinians that the Islamist group could enforce conservative views after defeating President Mahmoud Abbas's secular Fatah movement.

"We will not intervene in any aspect of Palestinian life ... except to convince people in a polite way," said Mahmoud Ramahi, a member of the Hamas politburo who won a seat in the new parliament.

"We are making efforts so that the sharia will be the source of legislation, but in order to implement Islamic rule, this needs a state. When we get a state, we will leave it to people to choose," he told Reuters in an interview.

"We will let the people decide by holding a referendum, and we are sure the Palestinian people will choose Islam."

Hamas softened some of its rhetoric ahead of the Palestinian election, emphasising its fight against corruption and its charity work rather than its formal aim of replacing Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip with an Islamic state.

Having won the election, Hamas now hopes to court other Palestinian parties to join a coalition and cannot afford to say anything that will drive them off. Fatah leaders have already said they do not want to join Hamas in government.

Hamas also hopes to try and win over Western donors that brand it a terrorist group for a suicide bombing campaign that killed hundreds of Israelis. The United States and European Union demand that Hamas disarm and change its position on Israel.

The 43-year-old anaesthetist said he wished that bars and restaurants did not serve alcohol, but Hamas would not close them if they did.

"We won't at any time introduce change by using force. We depend on cementing beliefs," Ramahi said. "If people are convinced, then so be it. If not, it's up to them."

Ramallah is one of the most liberal cities in the Middle East, but the Gaza Strip is far more conservative. The last bar openly serving alcohol in Gaza City -- a United Nations club -- was blown up by militants on New Year's Day.

Although Hamas is formally committed to destroying Israel, it has said it could accept a temporary state and a long term truce if Israel gave up all of the West Bank and East Jerusalem following last year's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.

Hamas has largely followed a truce for nearly a year.

Israel has said it will not talk to a Palestinian government that has Hamas members unless the group disarms and drops its vow to destroy the Jewish state.


Copyright © 2005 Reuters

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It really doesn't matter whether Hamas enforces Sharia or not. City streets are overpopulated with islamcrazed youth making life pretty much a hell hole for non-muslims. Eventually, non-muslim palestinians will move to less hostile places, such that the Islamization will have succeeded anyway. Sharia need not be enforced by any authority, the fundamentalist population will do the enforcing. This is how it was accomplished in the past, and so it will be done in the future.

I now understand that those who proposed the barrier have indeed learned from history, how repugnant such a wall may be. The future existence of Israel depends on it, no doubt in my mind.

[TommyJefferson]

In 1943 Winston Churchill wrote:

"I'm committed to creation of a Jewish National Home in Palestine. Let us go on with that; and at end of war we shall have plenty of force with which to compel the Arabs to acquiesce in our designs. Don't shirk our duties because of difficulties ... "

It is now time to pay that tab.

I wish everyone would quit crying about it.

[HonestPessimist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thor', 'I')t really doesn't matter whether Hamas enforces Sharia or not. City streets are overpopulated with islamcrazed youth making life pretty much a hell hole for non-muslims. Eventually, non-muslim palestinians will move to less hostile places, such that the Islamization will have succeeded anyway. Sharia need not be enforced by any authority, the fundamentalist population will do the enforcing. This is how it was accomplished in the past, and so it will be done in the future.

[thor]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HonestPessimist', '
')Are you referring to the similar approach that the Taliban had for Afghanistan before its downfall?

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thor', '
')Removing the barrier and allowing the Palestinians to be absorbed into Israel will be catastrophic for the Jewish state. I'm convinced that the barrier avoids a complete meltdown of the Israeli society.

[gebregebremarian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thor', '
')Removing the barrier and allowing the Palestinians to be absorbed into Israel will be catastrophic for the Jewish state. I'm convinced that the barrier avoids a complete meltdown of the Israeli society.

[TommyJefferson]

Here's a novel idea.

The Chinese and Brasilians seem to get along fine without wetting their pants every time one of the Semitic tribes issues a press statement.

Why don't we leave people alone and mind our own business?

[HonestPessimist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thor', '
')Removing the barrier and allowing the Palestinians to be absorbed into Israel will be catastrophic for the Jewish state. I'm convinced that the barrier avoids a complete meltdown of the Israeli society.

[kam30en]

Post-peak, Israel/Palestine will be a very different place. I seriously doubt the Israeli army will be as soft on the arabs post peak, and I don't see a demographic threat killing off Israel. Most likely, just after or near the peak (or great depression) the Israelis will expel the palestinians, who will most likely starve to death or be killed. The Israelis won't accept millions of paelstinians near them post peak, and the Israeli army is capable of completely destroying them in a quick campaign. As for into the far future (years after peak), who knows how powerful the arabs will be with their possible oil wealth, or if there are any more arabs at all. With China, Europe, the U.S., and Japan needing that oil and the arabs with no real military power, I can see the world powers moving in and pushing the arabs out. As for Israel, it will be the wild card in the oil endgame. But one thing is clear, Israel won't go down the way the african colonies (rhodesia, apartheid south africa, etc.) went down. If Israel goes down, it will go down with the power and destruction of a thousand giant tsunamis blasting thermonuclear bombs in all directions.

[rogerhb]

Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace

Go for it, Jimmy,

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he unwavering U.S. position since Dwight Eisenhower’s administration has been that Israel’s borders coincide with those established in 1949, and, since 1967, the universally adopted U.N. Resolution 242 has mandated Israel’s withdrawal from the occupied territories. This policy was reconfirmed even by Israel in 1978 and 1993, and emphasized by all American presidents, including George W. Bush. As part of the Quartet, including Russia, the U.N. and the European Union, he has endorsed a “Road Map” for peace. But Israel has officially rejected its basic premises with patently unacceptable caveats and prerequisites.