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THE Department of Energy (DOE) Thread (merged)

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: DOE to quadruple US oil reserves?

Unread postby mekrob » Sat 04 Mar 2006, 13:36:22

So if it will be too thick and viscous to get through the pipeline, then what is the point of recovering it. Do Japan and China have spare capacity for heavy oil, because I don't think Alaska has many refineries at all?
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Re: DOE to quadruple US oil reserves?

Unread postby Geko45 » Sat 04 Mar 2006, 14:58:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he DOE said 89 billion barrels could potentially be added to current proved U.S. oil reserves of 21.9 billion barrels

At what cost per barrel?

:roll:
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Re: DOE to quadruple US oil reserves?

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 04 Mar 2006, 19:06:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o if it will be too thick and viscous to get through the pipeline, then what is the point of recovering it. Do Japan and China have spare capacity for heavy oil, because I don't think Alaska has many refineries at all?

where did you get the idea that it is thick and viscous? Just because some oil is not recoverable under secondary recovery schemes such as water injection does not mean it is heavy or viscous. Unswept oil can be of all sorts of characteristics....often light sweet crude.

The point of their argument is quite important. If you have a field that is 20 billion barrels in size that has secondary recovery of around 50% and through CO2 injection you can increase that recovery to 75% (not out of the range of possibility technically although economically it would require high oil prices) then suddenly you have done the equivalent of adding 10 billion barrels of oil. CO2 injection is not new science has been around as long as I have but for the most part was too expensive. With higher oil prices I think you are going to see more and more CO2 enhanced recovery schemes.
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Re: DOE to quadruple US oil reserves?

Unread postby Leanan » Sat 04 Mar 2006, 19:45:06

There's some discussion of this at The Oil Drum. Bubba, their resident oil industry insider, had this to say:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')y company has screened all the world's fields for their CO2 flood potential. The list of good candidates is small. Their first has to be a cheap, reliable source of high pressure, high volume CO2. Then the reservoir and reservoir fluids have to exist in the right pressure and temperature conditions and have the right composition. The reservoir needs to be susceptible to pattern flooding (i.e. a good waterflood candidate usually makes a good CO2 flood candidate). Lastly the fiscal conditions have to be such that companies would be willing to invest very large sums of money with the prospect of making a profit many years in the future.


While cost is an issue, it seems it's really the least of the problems.
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Re: DOE to quadruple US oil reserves?

Unread postby MicroHydro » Sat 04 Mar 2006, 20:07:26

This is exactly what the "doomers" predicted, that on the downslope of oil depletion, lower and lower EROEI techniques will be used to produce increasingly expensive oil at ever decreasing rates.
"The world is changed... I feel it in the water... I feel it in the earth... I smell it in the air... Much that once was, is lost..." - Galadriel
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Re: DOE to quadruple US oil reserves?

Unread postby mekrob » Sat 04 Mar 2006, 20:54:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rockdoc123', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o if it will be too thick and viscous to get through the pipeline, then what is the point of recovering it. Do Japan and China have spare capacity for heavy oil, because I don't think Alaska has many refineries at all?
where did you get the idea that it is thick and viscous? Just because some oil is not recoverable under secondary recovery schemes such as water injection does not mean it is heavy or viscous. Unswept oil can be of all sorts of characteristics....often light sweet crude.
The point of their argument is quite important. If you have a field that is 20 billion barrels in size that has secondary recovery of around 50% and through CO2 injection you can increase that recovery to 75% (not out of the range of possibility technically although economically it would require high oil prices) then suddenly you have done the equivalent of adding 10 billion barrels of oil. CO2 injection is not new science has been around as long as I have but for the most part was too expensive. With higher oil prices I think you are going to see more and more CO2 enhanced recovery schemes.

Right here in the post just above my original post.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')xperts estimate that between 2006 and 2010, oil recovered from increasingly depleted Alaskan fields will be too thick to flow in the Alaska pipeline.

Please refer back to my original post. Thanks
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Re: DOE to quadruple US oil reserves?

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Sat 04 Mar 2006, 21:12:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is exactly what the "doomers" predicted, that on the downslope of oil depletion, lower and lower EROEI techniques will be used to produce increasingly expensive oil at ever decreasing rates.

And saldly, they just might be correct on the effects PO has on the greater society as well.

We could have sacrificed 30 years ago, and even 10 years ago switched to more efficient alternatives without sacrificing the living standard of the time, but we did neither. Now we're at the end of the road, last chance, and aren't taking it. Too much money to be made by the oilies, auto companies, defense contractors, and big government all obsessed with growth. Third time's the charm...

I think quadrupling these oil reserves is not only ludicrous, but the rate of extraction won't be enough to make up for shortfall anyway. Further, an earthquake or major leakage could potentially bring that CO2 back out, unlikely it is within the scope of our lifetimes. Like nuclear waste, we'll be dumping the responsibility of containment onto future generations, which is shortsighted and selfish.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: DOE to quadruple US oil reserves?

Unread postby InformedEJ » Sun 05 Mar 2006, 13:50:35

HHmm sounds like the DOE has read a little bit of Beyond Oil by Kenneth S. Deffeyes. An additional 89 billion.. at what cost and how long is this suppose to last. If they read further into the book they would realize that although "Diamond Compacting" Using "Coil tubing"and "Directional Drilling", these are great and New and Improved LOL... they are not in time to save the USA economy
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Re: DOE to quadruple US oil reserves?

Unread postby Eli » Sun 05 Mar 2006, 14:22:17

Well I think it sounds very promising really.

The fact is that to create the Co2 for injection you have to use coal gasification or Integrated Combined Coal Gasification(ICCG). The CO2 is just a byproduct of the production of Syngas and liquid fuels.

The original reason to do coal gasification is for the production of Syngas. The Co2 is a byproduct. When Ng goes over 9.00 bucks Syngas will becomes profitable and so does the whole ICCG process. The nice thing about ICCG is that it also removes all the Sulfur from the coal in a form that is much easier to handle, coal is everywhere but a lot of times the sulfur content is too high to burn without expensive scrubbers.

It will be cheaper for power companies to build ICCGs rather than retrofit existing power plants with co2 and sulfur scrubbers.

Here is a link to a plant started back in the 70s

Look at the products page. Hey it is Sunday let your doom rating go up for once. :-D

But I do see one big down side, what if there is a leak? You have tons and tons of co2 under pressure that comes shooting out of the ground at a high rate that could kill people pretty quick.
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Re: DOE to quadruple US oil reserves?

Unread postby DesertBear2 » Sun 05 Mar 2006, 16:26:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he DOE said 89 billion barrels could potentially be added to current proved U.S. oil reserves of 21.9 billion barrels


Dream on.

Maybe if we all meditate simultaneously, our concentrated mental power will make all that unrecoverable oil just flow up the well bores.
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Re: DOE to quadruple US oil reserves?

Unread postby mekrob » Sun 05 Mar 2006, 16:30:53

I don't really see any deviation in this statement. We have 20 something billion barrels left. We produce like 5 mpd which is about 1.8 bby which would give us a little more than a decade, but with decreased production, probably more like 15 to 20 years. This is a very low estimate. There is no way that we would stop producing in less than 20 years. I've seen that what's left is something like 150 billion barrels. So don't these 80 billion just fit into those other 130? Or are they saying this is on top of that 150ish
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Re: DOE to quadruple US oil reserves?

Unread postby Eli » Sun 05 Mar 2006, 17:25:15

You guys forget that coal wet gas was also called town gas because every town would have a plant to make gas for streets lights and such.

There is going to be a power down that is for sure but Coal gasification is going to help soften the blow. Deffeyes talks about it as being a viable option to help smooth things out.
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Re: DOE to quadruple US oil reserves?

Unread postby GoIllini » Sun 05 Mar 2006, 21:09:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'O')nce again we see a a high-tech solution in isolation that only prolongs the peak and steepens the decline. This scheme implies on-site gasification and distribution at an unimaginable cost in money, input-energy, time and a consequent loss of proft and eroei. Furthermore it would steal efforts and resources for more productive efforts (such as powerdown, localization, conservation, mass transit, etc.).

Note that it also prolongs the availability of $70-$80/barrel oil. That's the right price to keep the economy turning, while, at the same time, encouraging development of alternative energy.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he question I see here and I see it clearly now is this. So what if the current power structure can deliver some half-assed solution to peak oil. Do we want the status quo to survive? Do we want Waspish elitism running our country or do we want America to really be about a good solid honest eduaction system and equal opportunity and a conscience towards our place in a global community.

Well, this is a worldview issue. I'd like to see every American enjoy the prosperity that white suburbans enjoyed in the '50s and '60s. Maybe that involves lots of cars and lots of energy consumption.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')A place where teachers are charged to lay bare all of the things they know. You may not be aware of this but many University instructors hide knowledge and do not give that type of mentorship which would build up all who are capable of attaining to advanced mathematics and science degrees, law, medicine. Yes I did just say that! Only hand picked students get the very best instruction and promotion to be near the true centers of intellectual light in our culture. Everyhting about America is bought and paid for, including the lives of precious workers who feed and clothe the children of the wealthy.

I dunno about that, EJ. Big Ten schools are some of the best in the country- same with public colleges out in California. I learn more as an engineering student at the University of Illinois than an engineering student at most Ivy League schools, and hence, the average student in my graduating class will likely earn more than an average engineering student from Harvard, or perhaps even Cornell. U.C. Berkeley, The University of Michigan, Georgia Tech and the University of Illinois all have better engineering programs than a vast majority of the private schools, and, combined, churn out about twice as many engineers as almost all of the private schools in the top 15 engineering schools.

Hence, most of the smartest engineers in the country are children of the middle class, or managed to make it into the private schools on financial aid. And heck, I'm a Democrat who's getting one of the best educations the country can offer. I don't think the Republican conspiracy to block liberals from education is as broad as you allege.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') do not want this state of affairs in my country to continue. I want it to be true that my daughter will not be hindered in any honest pursuit except by her own natural abilities and her willingness to develop them. Did you know that there are univerisities in this country who feel the need to contact other universities and government agencies to get a sort of permission before engaging in certain projects. And then there is the old purse string persuasion that sidelines so many scientists who buck the trends. James Hansen has himself recently beeen singled out for censure by the Bush Administration.

I really haven't seen this. Some projects require funding; some require a single brilliant researcher with a PhD who's only teaching classes 10 hours a week. Some can get away with recruiting undergrads as volunteers.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')I will tell you masters plainly, you do not own knowledge! And if you persist in hiding what knowledge you have in violation of your clear social contract we will find a way to obtain it for ourselves. And will we be so bold as to exclude your children the way you intend to exclude ours!
OK, I'm kinda lost. Something like 1/3 of the students are here on financial aid. Same with at Stanford and MIT. I really don't see colleges trying to exclude the poor. It's more like college has gotten more expensive, and tuitions collected from the rich (who can afford it) and the middle class (who can't) are being used to subsidize educations for the poor. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a separate tuition for families with combined income of less than $150K/year?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')An awakening is about to happen in America and thank you very much oligarchs you have led us into such desparate times as to insure that you and yours will be no more likely that we to survive it!
I doubt it. They control the government and the voting system (IE: Diebold). I think we're heading back to, say, the way Chile was between 1830 and 1860; rigged elections, conservatives running everything, and oligarchy. I don't want it to happen, but Chile was producing three times as much in 1860 as it was in 1830, and 30 years of liberalism immediately thereafter helped redistribute the wealth. And a popular revolt, frankly, would be crushed as easily, as say, Afghan resistance when we invaded in 2001/2002- and it would result in more overt fascism.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut show mercy first and mercy shall be returned to you. Forsake prejudice and discrimination and it shall be remembered of you!

Prepare yourselves, for the year ahead will change the minds of many about many things.
Agreed. This year could hurt the Republican party twice as badly as it hurt them with Nixon. Perhaps it'll mean the death of conservatism. I just hope it doesn't mean the death of democracy. Oh well, the rich will have to co-opt liberal leaders, instead.
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Re: DOE to quadruple US oil reserves?

Unread postby The_Virginian » Sun 05 Mar 2006, 22:32:02

Bah humbug.

First Occidental Petroleum is doing it already on a large scale. Second, whe the price of oil goes up, more high production cost assets/oil becomes available, but they are not cheap...exactly as Cambell et al. have been prediciting (with straight logic I might add).

[web]http://www.oxy.com/OIL_GAS/technology/tech_overview.htm[/web]
[urlhttp://www.youtube.com/watchv=Ai4te4daLZs&feature=related[/url] "My soul longs for the candle and the spices. If only you would pour me a cup of wine for Havdalah...My heart yearning, I shall lift up my eyes to g-d, who provides for my needs day and night."
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Re: DOE to quadruple US oil reserves?

Unread postby pedalling_faster » Mon 06 Mar 2006, 12:40:27

this sounds like the kind of news they put on page 1 of the newspaper to reassure the stock markets & to slow the crash.

i'm not saying it doesn't work. the more (useful) tools in the tool-basket, the better.
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Re: DOE to quadruple US oil reserves?

Unread postby DesertBear2 » Thu 09 Mar 2006, 03:03:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')or example, Occidental's Permian operations utilize CO2 flood technology in certain fields while using water flood and electric submersible pumps (ESP) in others. In Oman, Occidental drills multilateral horizontal wells based on 3D seismic interpretation and recovers the inplace oil with gas reinjection and waterflood technology. In Qatar, Occidental continues to increase recovery rates in the ISND and ISSD offshore fields by applying advanced technolgies.


This isn't new stuff. The multiple well bores, horizontal drilling, 3D seismic, and gas/water injection have been around for a long time. This isn't brand new rocket-science that is going to revolutionize oil production.

I was at Prudhoe Bay in 1981 and most of the wells in the oilfield were drilled using directional drilling technology and multiple well bores. The horizontal drilling was used heavily in the later 1980s around the US. And the 3D seismic has also been around for quite a while.
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Re: DOE to quadruple US oil reserves?

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Thu 09 Mar 2006, 11:02:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his isn't new stuff. The multiple well bores, horizontal drilling, 3D seismic, and gas/water injection have been around for a long time. This isn't brand new rocket-science that is going to revolutionize oil production.

I was at Prudhoe Bay in 1981 and most of the wells in the oilfield were drilled using directional drilling technology and multiple well bores. The horizontal drilling was used heavily in the later 1980s around the US. And the 3D seismic has also been around for quite a while.


It's not necessarily that the overall technology is new but rather that it is being employed in new ways. For example the Idd El Shargi pool that Oxy is developing in Qatar is in very low permeability Shuaiba carbonates....the horizontal drilling takes advantage of the fracture network that provides connection of porosity. As well although horizontal drilling capabilities have been around since 1980 there are continual refinements. I too remember being involved in short reach horizontal wells in the late eighties, ten years later horizontal wells are reaching out several km of horizontal section in the same reservoir. Integration of various technologies is also important ...for example underbalanced drilling and horizontal drilling. As to 3D seismic, yes the underlying technology is not new, been around for more than 20 years but the refinements are very, very important. Some of the refinements are due to better electronics in the recording equipment, better software. Some are due to better seismic processing algoritms....bottom line is 3D 10 years ago could not show the sort of detail that 3D can now.
My point is, yes, you cannot point at any single technology as being the magic bullet.....but when you have innovative thinkers with access to multiple technologies that is when you stand a chance of making a difference.
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