[gnm]

Ludi you sucked me back in but only to agree with you on your last post. It really is a cultural problem (possibly endemic to any sufficently complex culture). Any time people are so insulated from close social bonds, food production, crafts, etc they turn to the myopic search for entertainment, stuff, conquest etc... I also agree that "race" is merely a subjective interpretation of regional variations. Some people can't stand that because then they wouldn't be "special" or " oppressed" but just people. And some can't stand it because they are supremicists of some sort or the other and feel some overriding need to prove that whatever group they are in is obviously the most advanced/smartest/etc etc etc...

Oh yeah true about the disease thing too... HG generally have a more varied diet and thus better nutrition. Also less crowding (no cities etc) so fewer plagues/hygiene related problems.

-G

[TheTurtle]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '
')
Oh yeah true about the disease thing too... HG generally have a more varied diet and thus better nutrition. Also less crowding (no cities etc) so fewer plagues/hygiene related problems.

[holmes]

true. However the closer to the sw and mexico the more exploitative the humans were. The smaller bodies have higher breeding rates than larger bodied species in nature. The piute indians however did not fit into your assumptions on this one. My pal lives in their summer hunting grounds. they had summer and winter hunting grounds and kept them sustaianble and managed them for thousands of years. they drove out the usurpers and the exploiters and overbreeders. tha comanches the same. the ones that sustaianed an ecological paradigm were the ones who brutally smashed the overextenders.
also the NW tribes, plains tribes and ne tribes were generally depended on the land so destroying it meant killing themselves. this is obviously not the case they were around a long time. However u are right in saying that they did exloit there resources. In those days it always came back the next season.
but I agree to say that all the tribes were sustainable is fantasy. as I said the sw, southern and mexican tribes continually overshot and migrated. utah has a brutal history. been to chaco canyon? The anazazi? they are finding that there was brutal canabalizing mass exodus north from the mexico and sw invading the sustaianble tribes to the north. also check out chacos petroglyphs. full of wild turkeys, goats, deer, etc.. nothing is there now. the drought and there overuse has rendered that area infertile. they consumed the resources and moved north. california is included in this sw paradigm. the way of the plains indian was to clear out an area of game move to the winter grounds and then come back to that spot the next season when the game reproduced. It was a ecological pradigm in that instance as well. tom brown has some good books.

[holmes]

and On a nutritional anthropology note (family Nut. Anthro prof at UO) the predominately corn based nutrition of the southern and sw and mexico popualtions is not conducive to full brain development. they basically cleaned out the wild proteins, were more "civilization" and ended up on a corn and squash diet. need those large spectrum proteins. the nw, ne and plains tribes brains were much more advanced. those buffalo and salmon were brain food. what a loss on that one. this can be seen in the iroquois constitution and cheif seattle speeches. and crazy horse and red cloud. and the sitting bull. advanced brains. those tribes did not overbreed. overbreeding destroys the protein and mineral base of the land then the brain degrades.

[Ludi]

The neat thing is so many Native Americans could eat these things for thousands of years and barely deplete the populations. In Jacksonville, Florida, the highest point of land is an oyster shell midden created by the Timucuan who sat and ate oysters there for thousands of years. You look into the river from the midden and it is full of living oysters.

[MicroHydro]

Forget about culture, there is only one human species alive today, Homo sapiens genocidus-extinctionus. It is clear from genetic evidence that our species exterminated archaic europeans (neanderthals). While less well known, it is also clear from genetic studies of head lice and tapeworms, that our species encountered and exterminated archaic asians (aka Homo erectus, Java man, Peking man, and the 'hobbits') on the way to the americas.

Likewise, our species has been doing mass extinctions for at least 50,000 years. It happened in Australia, New Zealand (seen a Moa lately?), and the americas as well as eurasia. Fire and sharp sticks is all it takes to destroy an entire ecology. There are no innocent humans in our species. The less foolish ones (like some north american tribal cultures and modern Iceland), developed wisdom only after catastrophe.

"Gee, life is harder after we killed off all the mammoths, mastadons, camels, horses, and giant sloths, maybe we shouldn't exterminate all the buffalo"

[Ludi]

Um, well, that's all still up for debate in anthropological/paleonotological circles, but we wouldn't want to admit that, would we?

Coulda been climate change, coulda been disease, coulda been humans.

No it's just so much easier to say "humans are just rotten through and through" instead of saying "humans can be really stupid, but some of them learn from their mistakes."

The question is, will WE learn from THEIR mistakes?

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')he question is, will WE learn from THEIR mistakes?

[Ludi]

LOL! No, it isn't a silly question, unless you're claiming the various tribal peoples who figured out how not to deplete their ecosystems had some other kind of brain! (see examples given by Jared Diamond in "Collapse")

I know it's important for folks to cling to their myths, but the fact is, not all humans behave alike, although they often tend to behave like other similar animals.

You need to realise humans have not been the only animal to displace other animals to the point of extinction. I don't see anyone getting on the case of the big cats who migrated up from South America and displaced ALL of the giant predatory birds, leaving only a few small remnants possibly related (like the roadrunner and the caracara). I don't know why some people seem to expect humans to behave differently from all other animals. It's like there are two myths operating at once: "We're evil sinners" and "We're special, the pinacle of creation." Hmm, seems familiar, somehow....

[entropyfails]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')he question is, will WE learn from THEIR mistakes?

[Ludi]

There's certainly evidence that "smart = sexy" and that humans have been selecting for various kinds of smartness since we started to become human. Such developments as language, art, and music may have first appeared as strategies for attracting females, and because human intelligence isn't sex-linked, females became smart as well, though typically in the past smart behaviors were exhibited more by males because of their chick-magnet properties.

[PenultimateManStanding]

One of the most grievous and serious insults you can offer a Mexican is pinche naco. Naco means that someone looks indian, i.e. Aztec, or Central American Indian. Mexicans are proud of their European roots and despise indian genes and features. I had a young Mexican offer me an insult, in "fun" as it often goes in the restaraunt where I work and I'm used to it, but I thought he went too far, so I pulled out the big guns and used it on him. Sure enough, it had the effect I expected: he was very offended though he tried to hide it. Usually these words are fighting words, but in this case, he had to just bite his tongue and bury his resentment because I am a middle aged "gringo": far more "European" than him. We in America have come to renounce our racist views of the past. I think that racist views are the norm around much of the world. Mexicans have no scruples about their own racist views. They may use our own scruples against us, but they have no qualms about their own derogatory attitudes to native american genes and hold them in contempt.

[venky]

I'll say this, most Americans are free of prejeduce at a personal level, atleast from what I have experienced living in this country.

I am appalled sometimes at the attitudes of some(not all) of my fellow Indians towards blacks, muslims, and foreigners at a very open and personal level.

[katkinkate]

All races, at some basic level, see all other races as competitors, potential prey/predator, less than us and/or 'other'. Its an 'us and them' situation. It's just been 'fashionable' in western culture over the last few decades to deny this. The rest of the world haven't felt obligated to follow.
Also I think the definition of racism is viewed differently in different cultures. Generally it's when someone of one race views or acts toward another race negatively, however a lot of people seem to think it is only when whites (currently dominant) hate blacks/reds/yellows (those not dominant) ... and don't see their own racial hatreds as racism.
Anyway, that's how I see it. Racism is the default in all humans.

[Zardoz]

Racism Rears Its Ugly Head in Mexico

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', 'I')'ll say this, most Americans are free of prejeduce at a personal level, atleast from what I have experienced living in this country.

I am appalled sometimes at the attitudes of some(not all) of my fellow Indians towards blacks, muslims, and foreigners at a very open and personal level.

[Keith_McClary]

From The CIA World Factbook

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')thnic groups:
mestizo (Amerindian-Spanish) 60%, Amerindian or predominantly Amerindian 30%, white 9%, other 1%"

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', 'F')rom The CIA World Factbook

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')thnic groups:
mestizo (Amerindian-Spanish) 60%, Amerindian or predominantly Amerindian 30%, white 9%, other 1%"

[dukey]

[video width=500 height=410]http://www.youtube.com/v/uNsAK7jS0WY[/video]

and you thought eugenics was just in nazi germany ?