[Leanan]

Colonialism is still going on in many parts of Africa. For example, child slaves working on cacao plantations. They will never taste the chocolate they grow.

I wonder what will happen as oil gets scarcer. Will shipping anything any distance quickly become too expensive to be worth it? Or will there be ethanol plantations in places like Africa?

[jmacdaddio]

Africa's biggest problem is that they cannot reconcile the ideas of ethnicity and the nation-state. Most of the countries were lines drawn on the map for the convenience of the colonial powers. Most African countries are not ethnically and lingusitically homogeneous. The creation of nations in the 1960s wave of independence had the effect of forcing tribes to compete within a political entity for a limited pool of government resources since there really was no private sector to speak of. It's no surprise that elections became winner-take-all contests where the tribal party with the most votes took power and did not feel like giving it up. Forging national identities out of the colonial legacy has met limited success and any re-drawing of the map should allow for similar tribes to be in the same political grouping, much like Italians live in Italy, French in France, etc.

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')ost of the countries were lines drawn on the map for the convenience of the colonial powers.

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', '
')That might be complicated in Africa. It is the birthplace of mankind...which means they've had a long time to develop different tribes, languages, etc. I have a Nigerian coworker who says over 500 languages are spoken in Nigeria. He is rather amazed that the U.S. is such a large country, with so few languages.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Torjus', '
')Most of the languages are probably related and languages can develop quite quickly under the right sircumstances.

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Torjus', '
')Most of the languages are probably related and languages can develop quite quickly under the right sircumstances.

[nocar]

Thank you Doly,

Not many people seem to be aware that English, Russian, Persian and Urdu (in India) are related languages.

I looked at the map and found that Caucasian langagues are spoken in a small part of the Caucasian mountains. Most white people, called Caucasians in the USA, speak Indo-european languages (not Caucasian) - and so do people in Iran, Pakistan and much of India.

Concerning tribal groups in Africa - I began to understand the problem when I learned that census data often were secret. The reason - if rival tribes learned how few their enemies were, they might start hostilities.

To put that in perspective - in 1740s Sweden conducted a thorough census, probably one of the first in the world. The results showed the government that the number of Swedes was pitifully small - and immediately the census results were deemed a state secret. No point in telling that to our neighbors, to give them extra reason to attack.

nocar

[Gil-Galad]

All the above does not explain the disaster that is Zimbabwe. It was a country that could grow just about anything with good roads, schools, tourism etc. It has been destroyed since independance over the past 30 years.

The people are starving, there used to be plenty food to export as well as feed the nation. The population has one of the highest HIV/AIDS rates in the world. The government has purposely destroyed people's simple homes leaving them to live among sewage.

Meanwhile Mrs Mugabe goes shopping in countries which will allow her and her evil husband to enter. Do not think you can blame this on colonists

[Ludi]

Yes, I think it can certainly be traced to colonialism, which unsettled traditional boundaries and alliances, allowing corrupt factions to arise with no way for the people to displace them. Colonial influence continues to affect behavior in negative ways, as people leave their villages to try for modern jobs and success, spreading disease as they do so.

Native American cultures never recovered from colonialism, I don't see why we should expect African cultures to do much better.

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'Y')es, I think it can certainly be traced to colonialism, which unsettled traditional boundaries and alliances, allowing corrupt factions to arise with no way for the people to displace them. Colonial influence continues to affect behavior in negative ways, as people leave their villages to try for modern jobs and success, spreading disease as they do so.

Native American cultures never recovered from colonialism, I don't see why we should expect African cultures to do much better.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'B')ut since the continent was so under-developed, capitalism could never allow them to catch up to the western world.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Torjus', '
')There are many African cultures that still are pretty much intact. I think much of Africa may have to return to more of a traditional way of life in a few years.

Torjus Gaaren

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'B')ut since the continent was so under-developed, capitalism could never allow them to catch up to the western world.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'E')veryone cannot "catch up to the western world" on a finite planet. It is impossible.

[Pablo2079]

Looks like China is willing to step in and "help" Zimbabwe, Angola and other African nations.

I like this quote from the article linked below:

"The U.S. will talk to you about governance, about efficiency, about security, about the environment," says Mustafa Bello, head of the Nigerian Investment Promotion Commission, who has visited China seven times. "The Chinese just ask, 'How do we procure this license?'"


http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/08/news/in ... tm?cnn=yes

[TommyJefferson]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'E')veryone cannot "catch up to the western world"

[alecifel]

Africa's problems are the same as the rest of the world: they've grasped on to an unsustainable socio-economic paradigm. What sucks for them is they simply are last in the race, and not the most fit for the run. If they would stop trying to Westernize and instead focus on rebuilding their traditional and sustainable lifestyles, they'd find that they were in pretty good shape, considering they have one of the choicest continents on the planet!

But instead they get these clowns like Robert Mugabe squandering their resources trying to build great nations and names for themselves. I say, run those goons off the ranch, and get back to grazing cattle.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'M')y argument would be why should they be have to develop into Western style industrial capitalist economies? Just because a system works in some cultures in some locations for some short period of time does not mean that is how it should work for all cultures everywhere forever.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', 'I') agree. "Catching up" implies that:

1. they are somehow "behind"
2. such a thing is desirable
3. such a thing is possible

The answer to all three is "No".

[alecifel]

Have to agree with Jaws on the Capitalism. Polylogism is an old and dead idea.. right up there with the idea that behavior is determined by lineage. Capitalism is an extension of Feudalism. It has been proven to be the most efficient at conservation of resources; the fact that oil has been depleted to such a large extent is not because of Capitalism, it's because of gluttony. People always want more than they have. In a capitalist society, they get it faster because the system is more efficient.

Africa is "behind" in the sense that they are trying to fit a particular model that isn't neccessarily the best one to strive for. We here in the West are already seeing the brick wall looming ahead, but that's because we're at the head of the line. (Which is, of course, why we are all here on peakoil.com) When the paradigm changes, Africa will still be behind. You don't back up to get to a sustainable lifestyle, you have to turn around. The West will still be closer to success than everyone else.