[FossilFool]

I don't know if this belongs here, but it seems like it does. I read Kunstler's latest essay. I have to say that he really lays it on thick on the American people and gives a lack of accountability to business and governmental leaders. I mean, weren't the suburbs a governmental thing to reduce the impact of nuclear bomb explosions? And didn't GM screw the trolley. Why is it the American people that he so completely despises? I mean, they engineered infrastructure and they engineered our brains from birth. That's why they have those. And even people who try can't reduce their impact that much really because the corporations concentrated everything in centralized production meaning long distance distribution. Why is it the American people's fault? Then, I see some people and their luxurious mentality and it makes me want to hurl. But even the industry leaders were compelled by forces they couldn't control and if they didn't, someone else would do what they resisted themselves to do. That goes the same for the countries competition for it. Maybe, some other country would be like America if America didn't develop like it did. SO, IT'S REALLY NO ONE'S FAULT. Kunstler sounds filled with so much vitriole at the people, and I think it misses the point.

[emersonbiggins]

Kunstler has some troubling issues, to be sure. His current attitude seems to be poignant, albeit somewhat misguided, disgust with the 'spoiled' American public, though he's at least as vulnerable to such indulgence (airplane flights to $$$ lectures - hey gotta make money! ), even by his own admission. To think we're going to change a decades-old national mindset in the one-week spans between his rants is absurd, yet, that seems to be his expectation as time goes on. I, too, get frustrated with our current state of affairs as well, but at least I'm realistic about when things could change (10-20 years), rather than expecting to see results immediately.

[Wildwell]

Ah good old blame. Poor old Henry, he merely set out to give the common man liberty. Most of this stuff was done with the best of intentions, some of it out of sheer greed and spite, more of it out of naivety. If you want to be really objective and look where the peak oil problem started, look no further than the mass production of cars. It wasn’t so much the car that caused the problem it was more the policy to rid planning and transport around them. At some point, my reading leads to believe it was the 1940s in America with the Pensey Pike road, and the 1950s in England with the Preston bypass, the age of easy motoring kicked off. This was all long before the hippy environmental movement, which began in the late 1960s. Global warming and the limits of growth were unheard of. Governments were lobbied by truckers and motorists via different pressure groups to build more highways at taxpayers expense. The invention of the Autobahn (Freeway) was of course by…Hitler…Germany now has 11,000 km of Autobahn, although it has a good tram and rail system as well..In the 1930s Hitler said

The best possible way to bring the German people back into work is to set German economic life once more in motion through great monumental works... This is not merely the hour in which we begin the building of the greatest network of roads in the world, this hour is at the same time a milestone on the road towards the building up of the community of the German people.
-- Adolf Hitler

But the building of this snakes of Nazism made no real difference to German economic fortunes, and by September 1939 Germany was at War with the rest of the world. Post war America rose to the height of a hyperpower, replacing the British empire, and kicking off the car based suburban dream through it’s post war wealth.

So the blame is with:

The evil Hitler, although done with the best of intentions.

The naive western governments, who were subject the lobby groups and wanted to deliver trade and commerce.

Henry Ford, again through the best of intentions.

[Jake_old]

I don't agree although a very well argued point. The fault is with us all, buying into the idea that Money = things = happiness. We were not forced to accept this, we could have thought for ourselves.

The problem was that it felt good. Jetting off to far off lands, a home that was 20+ degrees celsius in the winter, the freedom of personal transportation, allowing the market to dictate our reality.

This wasn't forced, we chose.

[FossilFool]

I didn't put GM as an option. I should have.

The Hitler option was considering that Hitler started the WW2 which ramped up industrialism and caused it to continue returning soldiers creating suburbs. But WW1 really caused WW2. And America shouldn't have been involved in that and left Germany in complete rubble to leave them vulnerable to a fascist to blame someone for their woe. Of course, you can retrace that back further still. This was Kunstler's point in his latest essay about how we will also be vulnerable to some tyrant. But I think in pursuit of his hatred of the average American, he doesn't consider some things. I heard a majority of Germans didn't approve of Hitler anyway.

You could say that human nature is set up the way BF Skinner says. When a person gets a positive result, the person continues this behavior. This thought is a much disputed point in the field of psychology. And you have the tragedy of the commons.

And we were forced to work 40 hours per week. So, it is natural that humans would choose to fill the time they have left with as much quantity of things and quality ie the exotic vacations as we can.

[Ludi]

Civilization (I mean the anthropological definition of it) coupled with capitalism, Manifest Destiny, and a cheap energy source.

[Jake_old]

What I find so frustrating is that nothing felt forced to me, all the time that I was peak oil unaware. (Peak Oil meaning a multiplicity of things in this context, its the tip of an iceberg it seems to me.)

I worked well over 40 hours, try 80+ per week. I was also aware of my unhappiness, but the relief of being able to afford 'things' made the daily grind worthwhile. I am now surrounded by people more unhappy than I, much more. They could choose to think (although it must be said, I never chose to think).

I seriously doubt that particular historical figures have unwittingly lead us down this path, although obviously their only concern, IMO, is simply to keep power and subvert the public.

I may well change my mind about this.

[Wildwell]

Oh Adam Smith again? Yes the 'Wealth of Nations' had a lot to answer for in the context of today’s problems. Smith always thought that ultimately people were a very sensible lot and they could settle their problems in their community given the freedom of the market…Mind you he did say this after 2 bottles of Speyside Malt. Yes money makes you happy to a certain point, but it's quality of life that counts. Two very different things. If Governments aimed to bring 'quality of life' rather than just plain old economic growth, we'd be a lot better off.

[emersonbiggins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', ' ')If Governments aimed to bring 'quality of life' rather than just plain old economic growth, we'd be a lot better off.

[coyote]

In any democracy or representative republic, one cannot ultimately blame the politicians, even though they're mostly a dishonest, short-term thinking, even sleazy bunch. Why? Because they are the 'representatives' of the public, in every way. They are a mirror for the state of the civilization. W Bush may be a frikken nightmare, but we voted him in. (I mean 'we' as a nation. I recognize that many here did not vote for him -- I didn't myself.) No, the blame lies solidly with the public -- ignorance, lifestyle and voting record (or lack thereof) are for most here a matter of choice.

I include myself in that, by the way. No one ever 'told me' about Peak Oil. But I certainly could have made more of an effort to stay abreast of current events when I was younger. I couldn't make the claim that I didn't know this stuff was important to know about. There were times when I was aware of the waste I produced; yet beyond doing some recycling, I didn't make any real effort to change my lifestyle or encourage others to do the same. My ignorance was my own responsibility, and I claim ownership of my share of the blame. Politicians and even corporations do respond to public outrage. When we as a people care enough to give a damn, as they say, then things will change. Not before then, and never unless.

[KrellEnergySource]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('coyote', 'P')oliticians and even corporations do respond to public outrage. When we as a people care enough to give a damn, as they say, then things will change. Not before then, and never unless.

[Barbara]

You forgot OPEC.

[Odin]

consumerism and myopic economists.

Consumerism is basically a result of using advertisement to create "fake" demand and purposefilly designing things to have a limited life span so people will have to by replacements often.

Crap economics is mostly a result of ignoring geology and physics, yeah, like that oil will come out of the tarsands like magic.

[KrellEnergySource]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Odin', '
')
Consumerism is basically a result of using advertisement to create "fake" demand and purposefilly designing things to have a limited life span so people will have to by replacements often.

[galacticsurfer]

THE SYSTEM IS TO BLAME

I couldn't resist that one. Obvioulsy we are the victims of our own ingenuity. We are one damn smart critter, humans are(pat on the back). Just give us enough rope to hang ourselves with...

[Doly]

I agree. The system (meaning the way we've set up feedback loops in the economy, government and other institutions) is the problem.

If we had invented a better system than capitalism and communism, we might be all right now.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', 'S')mith always thought that ultimately people were a very sensible lot .