[emersonbiggins]

As more of the news of biofuel and plug-in hybrid innovations are coming to light, I'm seeing two schools of thought emerge:

1. Switchgrass & other cellulosic biofuels, combined with plug-in hybrids, will allow us to continue in the project of sprawling out hundreds of miles into the countryside, relatively unabated. It can be inferred that the current infinite growth economic paradigm would remain unchallenged and no new conservation measures would be needed, other than those channeling waste and previously neglected feedstocks into the energy system.

-versus-

2. While the previously mentioned innovations will obviously be incorporated into the future economy in some fashion, it will be by necessity for mere survival, not as a preventative measure against losing unattainable goals like 100% automobile ownership and McMansions for 'all.'

Herein lies the crux: certainly we should champion more sustainable ways of living, but to take up the cause of biofuels and electric cars seems antithetical to that goal. To hear environmentalists wax poetic over the laurels of cleaner biofuels and suggested increases in fuel economy indicates a deep desire for them to 'have their cake and eat it, too,' for lack of a better phrase.

Your thoughts?

[PrairieMule]

EB-

More like have their rice cake and eat it to.

As far as hybrids, how far away are we from a Hybrid Ford F250 crewcab nessesary for construction work? I mean could someone tow a trailer with 40 sacks of concrete and mortar 35 miles out of town to the new sprawling Mcmansion sites with a hybrid engine? With hybrids it's always been about economy not torque.

I guess biodeisel could work and be a economical and practical solution for bulders and bring back to your crux. You keep hittin' the books mister! We are counting on you for a archetectural solutions and the expectations are high.

BTW, spent last weekend at Inks lake, I forgot how great the hill country was.

[NeoPeasant]

What we tell them: the decline of available energy may present serious challenges to our ability to produce food, clean water, sanitation, home heating, and medical care in sufficient quantities and we may have to make substantial changes in our way of life to cope with the challenges.

What they hear: What? Give up my car? No way, dude we'll fuel them with technology.

We may figure out how to make a lot of biofuel, but not nearly enough for cartopia. We'll use it to procuce food, clean water, sanitation, home heating and medical care. We will spend the first decades of this century painfully weaning ourselves from auto dependency.

[emersonbiggins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', 'E')B-

More like have their rice cake and eat it to.

As far as hybrids, how far away are we from a Hybrid Ford F250 crewcab nessesary for construction work? I mean could someone tow a trailer with 40 sacks of concrete and mortar 35 miles out of town to the new sprawling Mcmansion sites with a hybrid engine? With hybrids it's always been about economy not torque.

I guess biodeisel could work and be a economical and practical solution for bulders and bring back to your crux.

[rogerhb]

We've had 'more, more more' ingrained into us for the last two hundred years, and manically so for the last fifity years.

How about trying "less" for the next couple of hundred.

[Ludi]

Just no way these things can support our current lifestyle. The infrastructure isn't there, even if the equivalent energy were (which is isn't).

[gnm]

The problem with biofuels as I see it is there is simply NO WAY to scale it up to meet even half of todays usage. Anyway you look at it biofuels might only be able to keep up with supply declines post peak and then not for long. With a massive effort we might approach 10% but meanwhile oil supplies would continue thier relentless decline. Perhaps electric could do it. But we better start building those nukes if thats ever going to happen. I mean, even a 1/2 drop in usage would represent a massive change in lifestyles. People talk about "well we just need to get rid of the car culture etc" Well even a drop of 1/2 would essentially be that. And what would be the repercussions of such? And what of the growth economy then? What happens to medicare, social security, 401k's with a permanently declining resource base/economy. I guess what I am saying (as per Ludi) is that there is no way biofules can support even 1/10th our current lifestyle. Probably less. Note that the numbers for biofuel production are in GALLONS not BARRELS. divide those numbers by 44 and prepare to be depressed.

-G

[oilfreeandhappy]

If we start using larger percentages of our agricultural for biofuels, that will take away from current agricultural products - FOOD, etc.
Jim
http://home.comcast.net/~oil_free_and_happy/

[coyote]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('oilfreeandhappy', 'I')f we start using larger percentages of our agricultural for biofuels, that will take away from current agricultural products - FOOD, etc.
Jim
http://home.comcast.net/~oil_free_and_happy/

[gego]

I don't think it is an issue because the benefits of ethanol and bio diesel are immaginary, and will probably even hasten the decline by diverting existing oil energy into dead end projects.

Perhaps conversion of coal to a liquid fuel will help to cushion the end of oil by some very small degree, but in the end it does not look good as the coal will increasingly be needed to generate electricity and will soon be at peak also. Where will all the substitutes come from to replace all the non fuel uses of oil?

I personally have not seen any convincing argument that any of the "solutions" know now will be made to work. One solution, however that is certain to work for humanity to continue is a reduction in population down to under 1 billion over the next 50 years, and that is I think the solution chosen for us by mother nature and her laws.

[emersonbiggins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('coyote', 'T')hat's what's so intriguing about switchgrass -- it doesn't really take away from agricultural land, since it'll grow in places foodstuffs won't.

[coyote]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', 'T')he whole goal of relocalization could be in serious danger if plug-in EVs become commercially viable.