[dbarberic]

I get the sense that some doomers (not all), are really angry people. It is almost as if they are so disenfranchised with their current lot in life that they want to massive upheaval and social change because they believe that this is their current opportunity to come out ahead.

It seems like they rage against those who have achieved in our current society by disparaging every icon of economic/social success in America today.

I’m wondering if the “bitter” doomer subset is currently society’s economic losers, who are looking forward to a petroleum collapse because they believe that in the end, they will become the winners and they will get a certain joy in watching society’s current winners fail and turn to them for direction and leadership or die off.

Thoughts?

[untothislast]

Your theory may well apply in some instances. I've never been remotely materialistic myself, so I suppose any idea of 'envy' has never come into it. If I've ever had any secret longing for society's fall, it's because I put the interests of the planet first (we're just passing through) so anything that might help throw a spanner in our suicidally destructive works, and give some other less destructive species a chance, is fine by me.

[linlithgowoil]

probably is true in some instances. im not a doomer as such, but im realistic and certainly expect some bad economic times ahead.

it does, i admit, give me some sort of satisfaction to know that people who are currently profiting obscenely from the housing bubble will soon be in trouble. that makes we very pleased.

according to the usualy social strata type things, im at the top of the heap in society and should generally think that the current way of doing things is great. i dont though. i'll likely lose my job when the housing boom ends as i am a conveyancing solicitor.

[MfromAmsterdam]

Hello,

For sure this happens a lot. But most losers in present society don't know anything about PO. The doomers here (I'm one of them) are propable middle class and up so I'm not sure whether even most of them here on this website aro so because of their socioeconomic situatio.

But in the end I can only speak for myself. I became a doomer because I accepeted certain information as facts and became a doomer. Since I'm still young I also had the choice of ignoring people like Simmons, Kunstler, Campbell, Jeff Rense, Joseph Ehrlich and continue believing the Ruling Class that everything will stay the same and become a Yup and going just for my bankaccount.

But if your life is shit, you hate the world, don't like people etc. then what Campbell & Co. are telling could be welcome news and something to hang unto...for sure.

The best,

Michel

[Wildwell]

The ‘jealousy’ excuse is typically used to divert people’s attention away from the facts and doesn’t really wash.

There are no winners in the problems we face - even rich people will be very badly hit. The poor people, especially in developing countries will be first to suffer unless people take responsibilty. Sadly I think its 20 years too late.

As for being an economic ‘loser’ - who said anything about losing? Some are quite happy not to have 4 cars, 3 mansions and 6 vacations a year, believe it or not. The security of friends, family and world peace is more important, sounds corny I know, but when the crisis hits people will soon realise what matters. When people say good bye to their children for the last time, to go off and fight a war we might all become a little less materialistic. Personally, I’m doing okay, but come from a family who are very middle class and well educated.

This site isn't even a lobby group, it's just a place to compare notes for people 'in the know'.

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut most losers in present society don't know anything about PO. The doomers here (I'm one of them) are propable middle class and up so I'm not sure whether even most of them here on this website aro so because of their socioeconomic situatio.

[retiredguy]

I consider myself a realist. But, to many here, that puts me in the doomer camp. I wish there were a lot more doomers around; then maybe folks would start waking up and smelling the coffee.

Finite resources coupled with a growing population that has an increasing per capita demand for energy is a doomsday scenario. Without extreme mitigation we are facing serious trouble on planet earth.

BTW, I retired at 54 with sufficient income to live comfortably. Unless the economy collapses.

It really cranks me that we could have done something about this problem 30 years ago. Under Carter I built my first solar collectors and alternative energy component companies were blooming everywhere. It all ended with Reagan and here we are today: hunkered down in Iraq to make sure that we have access to the remaining sources of oil.

Pretty sad.

[Windmills]

If the polls are some kind of relfection of reality of users of this website, then most are firmly middle class.

[o2ny]

I have a hunch that most people on this board (doomers and all) have been relatively successful when looking at the standard benchmarks that we use now- they have money, investments, real-estate, higher education, marriage, children, etc. I've gotten a boat load of great advice about peak-aware investements here that certainly couldn't have come from economic 'losers'. But I also think that a common occurrence for those who obtain the 'american dream' and manage to reach the heights of status in this society- is to come to a place of asking- 'is this all there is?' (There's a scene in the movie 'Scarface' where Al Pacino's character is sitting in a fancy restaurant, has a beautiful wife, loaded with cash, drugs, and power- and he arrives at the same question).

That's the way it is for me- I don't consider myself super successful in any of the above pursuits (and of course there's always somebody more successful), but I've done ok. The point is, that what makes me and others welcome the baseline changes that will come from PO is the realization that 'doing well' economically doesn't provide satisfaction of the kind we *really* seek. It seems our success-obsessed culture has just led to people becoming isolated from neighbors and friends, workaholics, commuting 3 hours a day, not spending time with family, or seeing anything resembling nature unless they work really hard at it. We've reached the end of the road, and realized there's nothing there. It's like 'peak success'.

[PhebaAndThePilgrim]

Hello from Pheba, from the Farm:
I do volunteer work with the poorest of the poor, and believe me, the truly poor do not have the time or mental energy to think about peak oil. They are to busy just making it from day to day.
Actually, if the numbers were crunched, my husband and I would probably be at the upper edges of what is called lower class. Most people who define themselves as middle class are actually upper lower when properly defined,
But who cares. The point is that I don't worry much about whether I have enough food to make it until the end of the month. That gives me the time and energy to study issues like peak oil.
I am not jealous of the rest of the world. I don't want the world to collapse so I can take over, and I am not a loser.
I just care. I care when I look at my grandchildren, and I realize that they are facing a difficult time. I cringe when I look at my daughter and know that she will be stuck living through the mess we made.
Just because I can see a disaster looming on the horizon does not mean I created the disaster, nor does it mean I wish the disaster to happen.
I recently did a poll at the food bank where I volunteer.
90% of those polled said that they would not be interested in learning more about our energy situation.
They did not say this because they did not care. The human mind can only get through so many disasters at a time. They were just coping with their day to day existence. And, yes, most of them will be hurt first and worst by what is happening. Still, they are not stupid. I suggest a discussion of Maslow's heirarchy of needs and the way the human mind works.
Pheba
PS. As far as being angry, yes I am angry. I am angry at a government that is controlled by fascist corporate pigs, and is paying lip service to a religious fundamentalism gone mad. I just finished reading "Black GOld Stranglehold", and right now am mad enough to spit nails. I have every right to be angry, so don't go blaming my anger on some psychobabble insecurity issue. I'm righteously pissed off. The U.S. Constitution, upon which my entire sociology should be based, is being put through a paper shredder, and the nation I love is turning into a corporate religous fascist state.
My country invaded another without due cause. Hundreds of thousands of people are being tortured and killed in my name. In my state alone, thousands upon thousand are being stripped off Medicaid because our Republican nutcase governor slashed Medicaid, and took over 50 thousand off of the Medicaid rolls. One lady who made the news was a quadriplegic on a computerized wheelchair. She was cut, and Medicaid no longer paid for the chair. She said in the newspaper that Matt Blunt (yes, Roy Blunt's son) could come and physically remove her from the chair.
Angry, you bet your backside I'm angry.

[Ancien_Opus]

Some doomers are likely "economic losers" but not most. IMO it's the math challenged majority that can't wrap their minds around this problem. One trip to Las Vegas is all you need to observe the delusional thinking that is going on. The only people that really get rich gambling are the ones who own the casino.

Considering that Bill Gates was seen reading "Twilight in the Desert" and is now very interested in our energy situation. Richard Rainwater, Henry Groeppe, Matt Simmons, Boone Pickens and of course the likes of Warren Buffet lead me to believe that the "economic winners" who are most concerned about our energy future.

Most politicians dwell in denial because bad news may take away their spot at the gravy train. Genuine political leaders willing to share with us the truth, like Jimmy Carter, are in short supply at this moment in history.

The fact of oil depletion runs against the political leaderships intuitive logic because no other "oil crisis" was driven by supply issues but rather caused by political & economic factors.

"It will rain upon the rich and poor alike."

Regards,

[ECM]

I make quite a bit more than the average household. I am in a prominent position in a growing company. In one month I will have no debts. I am a realist and a doomer.

Years ago when I was earning minimum wage I longed for the material lifestyle of the middle class. When I was poor I had friends that helped each other and could have fun without material possessions. Since I have increased my salary more than 5X I have no one I can truly call a friend. These people are too busy living the "American Dream" of over consumption. Many of them are superficial, uncaring, and lazy.

I am tired of the rampant greed, stupidity, laziness, arrogance, and apathy. I also would like to see this world preserved for future generations. It's time for the reset button to be pushed.

[TommyJefferson]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Phebagirl', 'T')he U.S. Constitution, upon which my entire sociology should be based, is being put through a paper shredder ...thousands upon thousand are being stripped off Medicaid

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Phebagirl', 'T')he U.S. Constitution, upon which my entire sociology should be based, is being put through a paper shredder, and the nation I love is turning into a corporate religous fascist state.
My country invaded another without due cause. Hundreds of thousands of people are being tortured and killed in my name. In my state alone, thousands upon thousand are being stripped off Medicaid because our Republican nutcase governor slashed Medicaid, and took over 50 thousand off of the Medicaid rolls. One lady who made the news was a quadriplegic on a computerized wheelchair. She was cut, and Medicaid no longer paid for the chair. She said in the newspaper that Matt Blunt (yes, Roy Blunt's son) could come and physically remove her from the chair.
Angry, you bet your backside I'm angry.

[SinisterBlueCat]

where in the constitution does it discuss corporate welfare? I am fairly certain that it does not, and yet our government has no problem with paying out on that.

[Kingcoal]

I've noticed that doomers tend to believe in absolutes, which tends to make them fatalistic. Reality is fractal, there are few absolutes. Doomers have always been with us and always will be with us.

As far as an economic connection, I believe there is. Doomers are always waiting for the inevitable and thus tend to leave themselves out of the party. Most hard core doomers end up dying in their compound or whatever in the middle of the desert or wherever, never having seen their predictions of complete anarchy come to fruitation.

Life is too short, too unpredictable to be a doomer. My motto is enjoy it while it lasts and invest (enfranchise yourself) in tomorrow.

[o2ny]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dbarberic', 'I') get the sense that some doomers (not all), are really angry people.

[UnpreparedMF]

Specop_007,

Why don't you chill out? Phebagirl is making a point about some of the faults of our society. While her claims might be somewhat off base, your commentary is totally unwarranted. If you want to be a bully, why don't you counter with some factual information instead of YELLING about how DISGUSTED you are? Everyone has the right to an opinion, even you. Stop abusing that right with your pissing and moaning.

P.S. To address the topic...I am a regular middle class guy with a family that is a semi-doomer (I think we are in for serious consequences over the next 5-15 years, don't know if I think it is TEOTWAWKI though).

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UnpreparedMF', 'S')pecop_007,

Why don't you chill out? Phebagirl is making a point about some of the faults of our society. While her claims might be somewhat off base, your commentary is totally unwarranted. If you want to be a bully, why don't you counter with some factual information instead of YELLING about how DISGUSTED you are? Everyone has the right to an opinion, even you. Stop abusing that right with your pissing and moaning.

P.S. To address the topic...I am a regular middle class guy with a family that is a semi-doomer (I think we are in for serious consequences over the next 5-15 years, don't know if I think it is TEOTWAWKI though).

[UnpreparedMF]

Specop_007,

I agree with you on some level. I am in the same boat, I go to work every day and do the best for my family that I can. I'm tired of seeing my taxes get pissed away too, but some of the whiny, liberal social programs actually save money in the long run by reducing future expenses (educational programs, family planning, etc. ), but hard assed conservatives kill them because of short sighted greed or some BS about 'morality'. A previous poster made the point about corporate welfare. I don't mind paying taxes, but I hate seeing my money be used frivolously. Why do we still have farm subsidies? Why do we give tax breaks to energy companies while they report record profits? Why are we cutting taxes on the top 3-5% income bracket and cut dividend taxes while our nation is at war? Halliburton has misappropriated billions of dollars while troops WIA are billed for missing gear. The cost of the war and our effed up energy policy is in the hundreds of billions. The cost of these social programs that you despise is in the hundreds of millions. That is what should really make you sick.

Social Security is broken from the standpoint that more people are going to be receiving it than are going to be paying into it. I'm pulling number out of my butt, but I thought that if we did nothing, we would still have enough for like, 70% of benefits in 2045? That sucks, but its not worth adding a couple trillion to our national debt over the next 20 years to "fix" it with private accounts. We could tweak that system again and fix it if we didn't have the most bitterly divided political climate in the last couple three decades.

I was a voracious reader of news and blogs on the political front, until I found out about Peak Oil. Since then (four weeks ago), I haven't really payed attention and started donating money to the Libertarians. I don't know if it will do any good, but at this point I'm convinced that the best government is the least government.

Anyway, thanks for the reply. I hope your day gets better