[Eli]

Oh yeah we sure did I love the old Buggs Bunny Cartoons that had Hitler in them. But truth be told Buggs Bunny was origanly never targeted to children.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', ' ') But truth be told Buggs Bunny was origanly never targeted to children.

[nero]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('redJake', 'W')hat gets me is that they don't say "I'm going to kill you American/English/Israli scumbag" But just Athiest, I mean why?

[Eli]

Ok I will give you that

Red Dawn was a what if fantasy this cartoon is much closer to what is the reality on the ground in the West Bank.

[pastthepeak]

I have been thinking about the parallels between the recent events in Palestine and those in Iraq, in terms of elections. It has been said (sometimes in jest, sometimes not) that the last thing the U.S. needs in Iraq is a real democracy, because that democracy would, at best, vote the U.S. out of Iraq, and at worst put some real crazies in power.

In Palestine it would appear some variation of this is what happened. Assuming nothing more extreme develops, like the civil war I see the media is trying to peddle today, there will be an arguably democratic government in Palestine that few are likely to accuse of being a puppet regime for the U.S.

Would the same thing truly have happened in Iraq without the US presence? If so, come the next Iraqi election cycle (how long are the terms for the new Iraqi representatives?) how will the Palestinian elections reverberate in Iraq?

[Leanan]

What happened with the Palestinians has already happened in Iraq.

Remember how proud the Bush administration was about the Iraqi election? It lasted about two days, until the results were announced. The Iraqis voted in a Shia Islamic government. Exactly what Bush didn't want. Our puppet got trounced, and Rummy's pal, Chalabi, was excluded altogether.

We could have had that result two years ago. Remember Sistani? He was pushing for straight elections, because he knew he had the numbers advantage. We didn't want straight elections, because we didn't want a Shia Islamic government. We tried to push caucuses. We had that whole battle with Sadr going. Etc.

So after all that blood and treasure spent, we finally let them have elections...and get exactly the result we were trying to avoid.

[pastthepeak]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'W')hat happened with the Palestinians has already happened in Iraq.
.....
So after all that blood and treasure spent, we finally let them have elections...and get exactly the result we were trying to avoid.

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Somehow I don't view the current Iraqi situation as being as disadvantageous to the U.S. as a Hamas government may potentially be. With a U.S heavy force on the ground the Iraqis could still be strongarmed if the U.S. decided to.

[jaws]

Palestine is bankrupt and self-destructing anyway. The people had no choice but to vote Fatah out. Can Hamas fix the problem though? Probably not.

[thor]

I voted for a civil war. The region is a mess because a baby boom by the 'palestinians' produced a hatecrazed, indoctrinated population of youngster that can't see straight. I urge the Israelis to finish that barrier, guard it 24/7, and sit this one out. With Hamas at the helm, the Islamic frenzy will get an extra kick toward millitancy, koran waving, and flag burning. The real problems have now been obscured and historic revisionism has taken place over the decades. Forget it, it's out of control.

[lutherquick]

Hamas is win IS democracy.
The resistance in Iraq against the US, IS democracy.
Iran's radical stand, IS democracy.

In all three examples, the center is doing what the people want.

What the hell did America expect? What did Bush and Rice think was going to happen?

Did they expect a Jewish politician to win in Palistine?
I'm being sarcastic, but after Bush goes to church holding hands with Rice, these kinds of thoughts do come up.

Anyway...

Things are just fine all over the world for democracy. Venezuelans got the leader they wanted, Russia is now being lead by a great Russian leader Putin, not the drunk Yeltsin that was considering US citezenship.

It's must realy frustrate Washington when the world is going out of control and into full democracy.

[gebregebremarian]

To all the democracy worshipers out there, democracy is when two wolves and one sheep vote on what to eat for dinner.

[pastthepeak]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lutherquick', 'H')amas is win IS democracy.
The resistance in Iraq against the US, IS democracy.
Iran's radical stand, IS democracy.

[gebregebremarian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pastthepeak', '
')So, in your view, how will it play out in the future? As far as I can tell, Hamas has no real interest in democracy but clearly desires a theocracy. Same for Iran, which is already basically a theocracy.

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat the hell did America expect? What did Bush and Rice think was going to happen?

[HonestPessimist]

I do not believe that the Hamas will soften its position and sue for peace. They won't change their spots just because they are now in power, thanks to "democracy" in Palestine, which it is, of course, a joke.

The Hamas won't settle for any secular partnership with other Palestinian factions in the new "government". Their aim is a total Islamic government with no secular, Christian or communist roles. That's why the Fatah supporters are pissed about it.

These links will make you pause for thought: A Hamas supporter... a fond memory

Palestinian child abuse

[Twinsen]

Hamas will soon enough regret winning this election. The PLO areas are in total economic shambles. In addition about 50% of the population is under 18 and most of them have no useful education at all except perhaps in how to make bombs.

In addition Hamas is going to be totally reliant on foreign funds from the US, EU and Wahabi Arabia and will need even more help from Israel in terms of money, electricity, water, food etc etc etc.

If I were Israel I would say that if they don't moderate their charter the electricty and water just get turned off.

That will put hamas out of power within three weeks.

[Leanan]

Actually, I think Hamas does want to be part of a coalition government with Fatah. Fatah is the one dragging their feet. Hamas has repeatedly said they want Fatah to join them, and said it again today.

Hamas never expected to win. I don't think they want the responsibility of actually running the government. At least, not yet.

On the bright side, Hamas seems to be more efficient and less corrupt than Fatah. (At least so far.) The Hamas members who have been elected on a local level have impressed people with their competence. Though it wouldn't take much with Fatah setting the standard.

I expect Hamas to eventually take the same tack Fatah did. Talk about giving up violence, but secretly support a militant wing. Like Fatah's al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade. That way, they can get the funding from the international community that they need, while still maintaining "street cred."

Today, they announced they would merge all their militant factions into a new Palestinian army, charged with defending the Palestinian people. They said they would continue attacking Israeli civilians if Israel keeps targeting Palestinian civilians.

I think this could be an opening for Israel. Hamas has kept long cease-fires, that were only broken when Israel undertook "targeted assassinations."

Of course, we're really not in any position to tell Israel not to do that, since we're doing the same thing in Pakistan.

[americandream]

And all the while......they look, listen and learn the arts of cunning................while the great Cosmic illusion plays itself out..........hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[pastthepeak]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', '
')On the bright side, Hamas seems to be more efficient and less corrupt than Fatah. (At least so far.) The Hamas members who have been elected on a local level have impressed people with their competence.