[AmericanEmpire]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')y God, don't do that, AE. I or someone like me will surely have space for you---and need you---on country properties like mine, assuming you're prepared to pull your weight. I'm serious.

[ubercynicmeister]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Liamj', 'T')hanks ubercynicmeister, was good advice, particularly the 'grin and bear it' part - most ppl will hang themselves if you give them enough rope.

[Heineken]

dupe post---sorry.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AmericanEmpire', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')y God, don't do that, AE. I or someone like me will surely have space for you---and need you---on country properties like mine, assuming you're prepared to pull your weight. I'm serious.

[crapattack]

Heinekin, you're right about what you said to AmericanEmpire, and I'm going to look at those books you recommended too

AmerianEmpire, I sure understand your frustration and hopelessness. I feel panic every now and then that I haven't bought and time is running out, the urgency is very present for me. Sometimes I feel like we'll never be able to save enough for some land or I'll never get enough friends to help - there's also so much to learn and it's just damn daunting. I think Heinekin feels the same way, and Ludi too. They have land so won't be on the street, but we have to remember there is probably some time - the main thing is to work steadily toward the goal. If we have a sudden fast crash then we'll have to do the best we can.

For the short term I'm trying to make some money like crazy so we can buy land, and trying to stock up on some supplies in case. We might have to rent out of the city somewhere so we can save -- we can do our business from anywhere, so cheaper the better.

Long term, I don't want to just give up, because to me that is just death and I think there will be a lot of joy and beauty to live for in the life ahead. If I can help people live then I will be helping myself. By people joining to build something together, like minded people, then there is a chance -- especially if we can get a couple growing seasons in, get the animals set up and looked after and solar/small wind put in. I've seen some very inspiring examples of what people can do when motivated and as long as there is a willingness to learn and the means to we can accomplish much.

Heinekin, I too feel that there are a few on this forum that probably wouldn't care to meet me, and it's mutual, but some that I'd gladly sit down with. We could ask Monte if a conference or symposium has been discussed yet and maybe see if there is a willingnes, or maybe we just do it on our own with people we want to meet. Perhaps not many would come, valuing their anonymity. I'm a bit shy with lots of new people at once, but not with a small group. If it was a big gathering I'd probably want to have lots of break outs to form small groups.

BTW, I'm reading Dyer's "The Power of Intention" and loving it.

[Ludi]

My house ins't paid for, so I could be "on the street" - I own the land but it is attached to the house....

[AmericanEmpire]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')y house ins't paid for, so I could be "on the street" - I own the land but it is attached to the house....

[Heineken]

Of course, owning land isn't by itself a panacea. It's only the start to the solution. Even with 25 acres I still feel (and am) very vulnerable in any sort of collapse scenario. I could easily be reduced to a starving wild man roaming around gnawing on roots. Or a gang of toughs could just move on in and take it from me. Community really will be the key, but sadly, it's probably the hardest thing of all to obtain, as Ludi and others have attested.

[AmericanEmpire]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')r a gang of toughs could just move on in and take it from me.

[crapattack]

Sorry to hear that Ludi, maybe you'll have time to pay it off. We've thought of renting outside of the city. In our home town it is still cheaper than what we pay in the city and as we both work from home theoretically we can work anywhere. It will save us money until we buy our land with the parents. If a fast crash came while we were renting we might get turfed out, but maybe not. Chances are the landlord wouldn't be able to find anyone else and they'd be hit too - it'll probably really depend on individual owners.

I agree with AmericanEmpire, I don't think the banks could foreclose on half of N. America. Imagine what would happen when the collectors came... they'd sure not last long. Just as when I hear people talk of huge work camps for debtors. I've never heard a plan that reasonably explains how in post crash you would round up, house, feed and secure millions and millions of people in work camps. Security and feeding alone would be horrendous, there would be many breakouts. But some would choose to be fed and housed as well in these camps rather than wander looking for odd jobs in exchange for food and shelter. Far better for the banks to just hold the deeds and become the feudal overlords.

I think if you were a PTB, much better to have a feudal system where the peasants lease the land from you and live and work on it, pay in labour. A meagre existence for sure, but that is what we will eventually revert to, I'm sure. Landowners will be the wealthy ones, especially if it is arable land. Even if you're not interested in community as long as the land will feed people I'm sure landowners could also attract 'workers' and pay them in food and lodging. It may not be fun if you're the worker, but it would be a way to survive.

I don't want any part of that. I'm sure, AE, many folks will feel the same. I too wouldn't want to take land by force, I'd be more likely too offer my skills. If you personally make it through the die off, I suspect there will be a lot of vacant land. The drawback there is I think community really is the key if you're just a regular Joe and need to survive with some measure of happiness. From community you can divide the labour, defend members and property, and have relationships. There are always politics in groups, but there are some simple rules that have worked over time for many many groups that can help make this run more smoothly. I think the 90% failure rate Heinekin refers to might be because they didn't 1) do proper planning 2) get beyond the planning into action. Member compositon is really important too from what my friend tells me. People have to have caring for one another beyond basic survival. You have to have more in common than that in order for everyone to work together and play nice.

[Ludi]

I hope if mass foreclosures begin people will stand with their neighbors and prevent them from being evicted. I will stand with my neighbors to the best of my ability. Of course most of my neighbors appear to be much richer than I am, but maybe they are simply deeper in debt.

[coyote]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AmericanEmpire', 'I')'ll tell you whats frightening and frustration. Having no chance of getting to a rural homstead and setting up self sufficiency. I've got no assets and am stuck renting an apartment. Dependent on a factory job for your income.

I'm gonna be out on the street and starving. Thats frightening.

I might as well just prepare to commit suicide when I don't have any options of providing for myself.

[crapattack]

Coyote, I think people can contribute in their way. As a teacher that will be valuable to a community. Amongst my friends one is older and physically frail, but very experienced at making intentional communities. She has so many insights that will be valuable and she can also take care of the chickens, they don't require much work as long as someone else does the cleaning. In order for communities to work we will need to include everyone, from young, old, sick and healthy and make sure they have a place and things to do.

The only problem I can see with you having sole ownership is it could devolve into a 'plantation' type situation and people might resent being the workers. If you could offer shares so that people could buy a share or work to buy a share then you will probably get a more stable political structure. Just a thought though.

[Heineken]

Crapattack, perhaps coyote's discomfort with his role as a teacher relates to uncertainty over how applicable his particular knowledge base would be to a postcollapse world. (Just guessing, coyote---correct me if I'm wrong.) Of course, knowledge per se is to be celebrated and held onto if possible. But some have theorized that a great deal of knowledge is about to be lost because it won't be directly usable and because most people will be hurled back to the base of Maslow's hierarchy.

But brewing skills will always be in demand, coyote!

My own specialty of the fossil-fuel era---manuscript editing---will be utterly useless in the future. Thus, I've been trying to teach myself practical skills, including survival skills, as time allows. And my reading has shifted from fiction to nonfiction.

[coyote]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', 'T')he only problem I can see with you having sole ownership is it could devolve into a 'plantation' type situation and people might resent being the workers. If you could offer shares so that people could buy a share or work to buy a share then you will probably get a more stable political structure. Just a thought though.

[coyote]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'C')rapattack, perhaps coyote's discomfort with his role as a teacher relates to uncertainty over how applicable his particular knowledge base would be to a postcollapse world. (Just guessing, coyote---correct me if I'm wrong.) Of course, knowledge per se is to be celebrated and held onto if possible. But some have theorized that a great deal of knowledge is about to be lost because it won't be directly usable and because most people will be hurled back to the base of Maslow's hierarchy.

[Heineken]

coyote et al.: If you haven't already discovered it, a great site to use to search for land deals is unitedcountry.com. I used to spend hours and hours exploring that site. The offerings are a lot better in some states (like Missouri) than in others (like Idaho). I too have been generally obsessed with the idea of land acquisition---a lifelong interest and pursuit of mine.

[crapattack]

Coyote, being an artist myself I certainly share your discomfort about what the future is going to hold. Most of my friends are creatives, but generally I've found it's possible to be a lot of things. Really. If you are creative you are used to a certain type of problem solving and it is a particular skill unique to creatives that should do us very well in the future. I'm feeling optomistic today (tomorrow might be different) that as a long as you are willing to learn, and we have a bit of time, you'll get by. Some of these skills we will need won't be too hard, and easy enough for intelligent people to figure out, after all, people are living right now without any power and doing just fine thanks. As a part of a community you won't have to learn everything. I've found books to be a great resource and you can shift your knowledge base. My business will be useless once the we are no longer using our computers, but I am counting on my own resourcefulness and a bit of preparation to see me through (fingers crossed here :wink ) Yes, my mind is focussed on land as well and I totally agree with you there.

Heinekin, that link was great! If I was buying property in the US I'd certainly check it out. BTW, I ordered the financial planning book. It should arrive in a few days.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('coyote', 'A')dvertising I'm sure will bite the dust.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', 'B')TW, I ordered the financial planning book. It should arrive in a few days.