[Starvid]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')irefly Energy (earlier post) has received a US patent for a new carbon-foam lead-acid battery technology that it believes has the potential to revolutionize the existing global lead-acid battery market as well as serve applications such as hybrid electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids.

Firefly contends it can deliver lead-acid battery performance comparable to NiMH, but at about one-fifth the cost, and with greatly reduced weight compared to traditional lead-acid batteries.

[Mesuge]

Yes, they secured backing from a large garden& tools manufacturer Electrolux, many house hold name brands under their umbrella in the US market.

In addition they are planing to grab a huge portion out of the emerging world's hybrid battery market. That also means EV breakthrough if they will be ready to sell it on open market and not OEMs only which I doubt at least for the first production years..

Basically they promise close to NiMh/Li-ion performance for slightly higher lead acid pricing and no big retooling for the lead batt. industry.

Their patents went into similar direction as another battery company called Power Technology.. I've posted links to these patents in other threads..

The big and open question remains how long we have to wait for this product in the form of 6/12V @ 120-225Ah battery? If they deliver as promised the infernal engine is dead instantly the moment these puppies appear at your local market. However, there are a couple of big market ods against it so lets hope but not be too over optimistic..

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', 'Y')es, they secured backing from a large garden& tools manufacturer Electrolux, many house hold name brands under their umbrella in the US market.

In addition they are planing to grab a huge portion out of the emerging world's hybrid battery market. That also means EV breakthrough if they will be ready to sell it on open market and not OEMs only which I doubt at least for the first production years..

Basically they promise close to NiMh/Li-ion performance for slightly higher lead acid pricing and no big retooling for the lead batt. industry.

Their patents went into similar direction as another battery company called Power Technology.. I've posted links to these patents in other threads..

The big and open question remains how long we have to wait for this product in the form of 6/12V @ 120-225Ah battery? If they deliver as promised the infernal engine is dead instantly the moment these puppies appear at your local market. However, there are a couple of big market ods against it so lets hope but not be too over optimistic..

[Mesuge]

If I recall it correctly they planned in 2004 to launch pilot production for Electrolux lawnmovers and powertools in 2-3years that means sometime next year, 2007..

Again, big questionmark if there will be enough of them to leak into grey or official aftermarket. Also it's quite likely they will set up a specialized branch for high performance hybrid/EV batteries in cooperation with some big brand like Toyota, Honda etc. So this renders availability of this technology for Joe/Helmut/Lee Sixpack in the first production years a bit unrealistic..

[Starvid]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', 't')he infernal engine

[gnm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', '
')The big and open question remains how long we have to wait for this product in the form of 6/12V @ 120-225Ah battery? If they deliver as promised the infernal engine is dead instantly the moment these puppies appear at your local market. However, there are a couple of big market ods against it so lets hope but not be too over optimistic..

[Mesuge]

gnm> ??? Could you elaborate more on your idea?

This is just ordinary heavy lead acid AGM battery rated at 450 deep cycles at maximum.. Perhaps a bit more on the quality side of the production spectra that's all..

FireFly or PWTC are next gen lead acid battery with only 1/3 of the weight, double the cycle life etc..

[gnm]

I guess the point I was making is that its not likely that the ICE is going anywhere soon, nifty keen new batteries or not. Large capacity Li batteries exist already which have better specifications than these proposed new batteries. They are not being used for electric vehicles because of cost. Even with double the life and 1/3 the weight the cost alone would be the reason ICE engines would continue to be used.

-G

[Mesuge]

Gnm> I don't want to sound rude. But pls. read up something on EVs first before you post further - the available material is plentifull at this very forum but you apparently skiped that part..

Yes you can get lightweight and powerfull Li-ions for say $6-15K from China (triple the price for EU/US technology) per pack and this is only ment for some small/midisize vehicle. Firefly claims to provide the same storage for the price slightly above current lead acids = 4-5x cheaper!

[gnm]

I have read up on EV's. So you are implying that these will be 4-5x cheaper than a 6-15K pak. That comes out at what 1.5-3k or so? And you are saying that this is still more than a conventional lead acid pak. I seriously doubt your numbers are correct there since I just bought 2 concorde 2120L AGM's at a delivered cost to me of about $750.00 US. Those two wouldn't even come close to running an EV any reasonable distance. I estimate my cost for a moderate EV pak using these conventional lead acids would be something closer to $4000 US. So if these are going to cost slightly more than that I say they aren't going to fly.

-G

[Mesuge]

OK I though this has been obvious for all but since you asked for it lets crunch some basic numbers.. Imagine some middle sized EV:

120V system voltage, 6Vx200Ah AGM/GEL lead acid batteries
=> 120x200Ah = 24kWh x .57 (C1hour coef. for lead acid) = 13,68 kWh of usable power in your "tank"

price: 20xAGM/GELs = 20 x $160 = $3200
range: consumption 200Wh/mile at 50mph => 13,68 kWh/200Wh= 68miles
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Li-ions the cheapest (tested in EVs) on the market are $2.5Ah TS from China, get ready to plunk down 2-4x more for similar stuff from US/EU company..

For similar 120V system you will need pack of 3.7V@150Ah cells (150Ah Li-ion cells allow for roughly the same discharge -slightly more- as 200Ah lead acid) - the other option is to use 100Ah cells which is too small for traction or 200Ah which is too costly..*

price: 33x150x2.5 = $12 375
*range: consumption 170Wh/mile (less because of batt weight reduction) at 50mph => 18 kWh/170Wh= 106miles

plus longer cycle life cca 100.000miles (2-3x more in comparison to lead acid)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So IF Firefly delivers the energy density close to Li-ions for slightly higher price than original cheap AGM/GEL lead-acid you get the picture. Suddenly 200miles range for only $8K is at our disposal..

[The_Toecutter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he big and open question remains how long we have to wait for this product in the form of 6/12V @ 120-225Ah battery?

[Mesuge]

There are some new press releases at FireFly's website. Now, they claim to launch their products in Electrolux appliances by 3/4 2007.. No word about direct sales though..

There is also an article/interview at evworld.com but I don't have the access..
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section ... toryid=960


Toe> For planning your battery pack you can use this theoretical model/formula. I think it's quite accurate. Although pretty sobering range-wise even for the best agm/gel lead-acid if you allow for the 50% DOD requirement and less efficient low volt DC system and C1hour discharge rating of your battery..

No wonder, that a lot of people were destroying their batteries
with unadequate C20 100-120Ah (equals to tiny 68Ah@C1) lead and without proper BMS prematurely. That should be forbiden to install in low voltage EVs unless you drive very slowly and just a few miles a day..

http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_Ba ... ysics.html