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An analogy that explains much...No action until a crisis

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

An analogy that explains much...No action until a crisis

Unread postby OilBurner » Fri 13 Jan 2006, 08:07:27

Hello to all, long time no see.

I took my Wife's car in for a service today (bear with me, this is relevant) and something struck me quite strongly about what is wrong with society.

You see, the car is having a problem (ya de yah) and the dealer refuses to investigate or fix it under warranty because the cars computer hasn't yet registered a problem - even though it's done this before a couple of times and the end result is always a dead car.

So, instead of pro-actively fixing the problem, they will take no action until the car is effectively fcuk'd.

Anybody see the parallels I'm drawing here? :)

It's seen as too expensive and troublesome to fix a potential problem (no matter how certain it would appear it WILL be a problem) than to just sort it out and avoid the grief beforehand. BUT only so long as it is somebody else who will have to put up with things going wrong.

Hence why the out of control train we know as Peak Oil is steaming rapidly towards the end of tracks and nobody seems to want to do anything about it. "Is it my problem right now?" people ask, if the answer is no, then the train carries on relentlessly to its obvious end...

And the answer to this conundrum is...
Burning the midnight oil, whilst I still can.
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Re: An analogy that explains much...

Unread postby Gazzatrone » Fri 13 Jan 2006, 08:21:13

Maybe these guys are unwittingly doing you a favour.

By not fixing the problem they in effect save you a repair bill as they maybe aware that not far down the line without oil to put in your car, no amount of computer technology is going to make your car run.

Just a thought.

But i think your conclusion is closer to the mark
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Re: An analogy that explains much...

Unread postby Doly » Fri 13 Jan 2006, 08:32:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gazzatrone', '
')By not fixing the problem they in effect save you a repair bill as they maybe aware that not far down the line without oil to put in your car, no amount of computer technology is going to make your car run.


I don't expect we'll run out of gas that soon.
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Re: An analogy that explains much...

Unread postby OilBurner » Fri 13 Jan 2006, 09:35:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gazzatrone', 'M')aybe these guys are unwittingly doing you a favour.


The absence of wit is definetly one of these peoples troubles! :wink:

Sorry for double post, what a way to make a comeback! :oops:
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Re: An analogy that explains much...

Unread postby aahala » Fri 13 Jan 2006, 10:00:12

I don't think there's any conundrum here.

Whatever the aggregate economic figures, a recession is when your
neighbor loses his job, a depression is when you do.

The intensity of pain and motivation to respond is always a function of
its immediacy and proximity to the individual.
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Re: An analogy that explains much...

Unread postby Seadragon » Fri 13 Jan 2006, 11:02:24

the analogy I've been thinking of recently is comparing peak oil to the coming social security/medicare crisis in the US. This has similarities to peak oil in that it is a future event which will cause adverse effects and it will get worse the longer we ignore it, which we are doing quite effectively right now. The government is aware of it (my social security statement tells me every year that the money is going to run out in a few years if more money isn't made available) and the cost to fix it has been well documented (about $74 trillion last time I checked). The only difference between this and peak oil is that we know exactly the timeframe this is going to happen (starting in 5 years, when the baby boom generation starts retiring). So, my question is, if the government won't deal with this coming economic storm, why in the world would I expect it to discuss peak oil with the public?
Exporting oil is an act of treason"-- Heitor Manoel Pereira, president of AEPET in Brazil, January 06, 2006
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Re: An analogy that explains much...

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Fri 13 Jan 2006, 11:15:26

Yes....but is it not true that by not jumping in to fix something when they do not have all of the necessary diagnostic information they actually end up doing you a favor if in fact it turns out that what you think is wrong is in fact OK?
I think this is similar to what many worry about various issues, peak oil being one, global warming being another. The big question is how much diagnostic information do you need before you try to solve a problem? I would argue that we have enough info to know oil will peak sometime...I'm not convinced we have enough to know when with a level of certainty that allows us to do the right thing. I believe the same is true for global warming.
So rather than have billions of people running around trying to solve a problem which we understand poorly why not put more resources immediately on trying to better understand the problem?
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Re: An analogy that explains much...

Unread postby Gazzatrone » Fri 13 Jan 2006, 11:25:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rockdoc123', '
')So rather than have billions of people running around trying to solve a problem which we understand poorly why not put more resources immediately on trying to better understand the problem?


But we do understand the problem of Peak Oil being that relying on a finite resource that is in decline at a yearly percentage increase is just disaster waiting to happen.

The fundemental problem is that many are either in denial and hoping that if its ignored the problem will go away and worse still there is a vast majority just living in total ignorance, and no matter how much financial or other resource you throw at the problem, if people do not want to listen there is nothing that can be done.

When the world does wake up it's going to be one almighty hangover.
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Re: An analogy that explains much...

Unread postby Seadragon » Fri 13 Jan 2006, 11:28:43

Well, I suppose I would cite the Hirsch report as an example of starting to mitigate the effects as soon as possible, even though we are not sure of the actual date of peak oil. The suggested mitigation seems to me sensible and not much of a downside, although I recognize that Hirsch refers to risks of actions taken prematurely. From interviews, Hirsch clearly discounts this risk, however. If my thinking is simplistic in this regard, please point out the flaws.
Exporting oil is an act of treason"-- Heitor Manoel Pereira, president of AEPET in Brazil, January 06, 2006
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Re: An analogy that explains much...

Unread postby aahala » Fri 13 Jan 2006, 11:32:10

Seadragon, your analogy with social security is a good one.

I would like to point out though the "trust fund" does not have now nor
has it ever had any true assets. The figure is simply the running total of
funds collected for retirement that have been spent for other purposes. There is no money to run out.
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Re: An analogy that explains much...

Unread postby Seadragon » Fri 13 Jan 2006, 11:52:19

Yeah, I knew that. Social Security still clings to the fiction, though. Anyone here believe we're not in for a huge dose of inflation in the next few years?
Exporting oil is an act of treason"-- Heitor Manoel Pereira, president of AEPET in Brazil, January 06, 2006
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Re: An analogy that explains much...

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Fri 13 Jan 2006, 13:20:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he suggested mitigation seems to me sensible and not much of a downside, although I recognize that Hirsch refers to risks of actions taken prematurely. From interviews, Hirsch clearly discounts this risk, however. If my thinking is simplistic in this regard, please point out the flaws


I am not sure what the risks are....but therein may lie the problem. In the past man has intervened in many things in an attempt to be pre-emptive, in many cases this has backfired and made for worse problems.

Examples:

At one time the US Forest Service was adamant about the Smoky The Bear policy where they put out all fires as soon as they started. What they found out was that many forests are comprised of fire successional species...if you don't have regular fires there is no new growth and eventually the whole forest will wither and die. As well the occassional fire is important for cleaning out the deadfall....not allowing the deadfall to burn regularily resulted in huge buildup of fuel for what turned out to be several climax type fires. The exact same thing happened in Canada.

In Canada this same policy even created more trickle down effect. With no fires and no new aspen growing the elk had to eat food that was not nutricious. This resulted in complete die-off of virtually all of the elk in the Alberta National Parks.....what disease didn't kill the wolves made short work of. Man thinking he knew what the problem was proceeded to kill all of the wolves. Later on they figured out it was in fact disease that was the problem so they imported elk, but with no natural preditors the herds got way too large for the available food source, again die-off.

On a more global aspect it wasn't that many years ago that DDT was touted as being an evil poison and lobbyists have been busy trying to ban its us around the world. In Africa it is pretty clear the only places that malaria has not decimated the population in one way or another are those using DDT.

I guess going forward a possible analogy would be with Kyoto and global warming. What if the heating from greenhouse gases is the only thing keeping us out of another glaciation? History has shown that warmer climates make for better economies....colder ones have the opposite effect.

Of course I can be completely wrong....I do believe we should at least get people being responsible consumers....but the choices we make in terms of switching to alternatives etc. have potential repurcussions that I don't think anyone has really thought about. I still think we would be better prepared for an appropriate response if we understood the issues much better than we do now.
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Re: An analogy that explains much...

Unread postby Seadragon » Fri 13 Jan 2006, 16:43:28

My guess is that Hirsch refers to risks of acting prematurely as spending money unnecessarily, but it's hard to say exactly since the report rather vaguely indicates only that "mitigation efforts initiated earlier than required may turn out to be premature, if peaking is long delayed." Somewhat circular. I certainly agree that meddling in natural systems without fully understanding the consequences of actions can lead to unintended adverse reactions, but I believe that those on this board, and those in the highest levels of government understand well that we are facing a crisis. Mitigation requires an extended discussion with the public, which is not happening now, nor does it look likely in the near term. I find this disturbing.
Exporting oil is an act of treason"-- Heitor Manoel Pereira, president of AEPET in Brazil, January 06, 2006
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Re: An analogy that explains much...

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sun 15 Jan 2006, 01:59:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rockdoc123', 'H')istory has shown that warmer climates make for better economies....colder ones have the opposite effect.

Historically, northern Europe and northern US have had the strongest economies. Exceptions being warmer places that have oil or other resources.
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Re: An analogy that explains much...

Unread postby JustinFrankl » Sun 15 Jan 2006, 04:11:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Seadragon', 'M')y guess is that Hirsch refers to risks of acting prematurely as spending money unnecessarily, but it's hard to say exactly since the report rather vaguely indicates only that "mitigation efforts initiated earlier than required may turn out to be premature, if peaking is long delayed." Somewhat circular.

My guess is that the Hirsch report wasn't written by an idiot, more likely someone in denial, or someone with a decidedly different agenda. Mitigation efforts which are started "earlier than necessary" will cost less from an energy standpoint, there is more "slack" in the project management schedule to address the unforeseen, and mitigation efforts do not preclude being able to use the increasingly available oil before the peak.

Mitigation efforts started "too early", however, will hurt corporate profits and business in general.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') certainly agree that meddling in natural systems without fully understanding the consequences of actions can lead to unintended adverse reactions, but I believe that those on this board, and those in the highest levels of government understand well that we are facing a crisis. Mitigation requires an extended discussion with the public, which is not happening now, nor does it look likely in the near term. I find this disturbing.

Most of the problems endured and suffered through by society through the ages would be well-addressed through an extended discussion with the public.
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Re: An analogy that explains much...No action until a crisis

Unread postby DigitalCubano » Sun 15 Jan 2006, 05:25:17

Example of risk as implied in the Hirsch report:

-Freak out over the possibilities of Peak Oil
-Mobilize a mitigation plan based on current technology
-Spend an a**load of money, resources and man power on the mitigation plan, flaws and all
-Wait for when TSHTF
-Slap our collective foreheads in disbelief over some egghead's new energy breakthrough (e.g. markedly better solar panels)
-Salivate in envy as someone else, maybe the Chinese or Russians, build a superior infrastructure using less money, resourses and man power

There is a fundamental tension at hand:
-Mitigate early to hedge the worst case scenarios
-Delay mitigation to hedge against the sub-optimal allocation of resources

Early mitigation isn't always the best choice. This is why I was reading the thread bashing some congressional representative in disbelief. Someone was wondering why the DoE hasn't drafted a plan yet. I pointed to the early mitigation issues as outlined in the Hirsch report. They didn't understand.
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Re: An analogy that explains much...

Unread postby Daryl » Sun 15 Jan 2006, 13:30:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Seadragon', 't')he analogy I've been thinking of recently is comparing peak oil to the coming social security/medicare crisis in the US. This has similarities to peak oil in that it is a future event which will cause adverse effects and it will get worse the longer we ignore it, which we are doing quite effectively right now.


Very, very good point Seadragon. Energy and social security are the big two. They have the much in common in the sense that our political system is totally failing us in addressing either. The main difference is that the solution to SS is obvious and simple - when TSHTF no benefits will be paid. The service at MacDonald's won't be quite so snappy down the road when they are staffed by septugenarians.
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Re: An analogy that explains much...

Unread postby Daryl » Sun 15 Jan 2006, 13:46:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rockdoc123', 'I') am not sure what the risks are....but therein may lie the problem. In the past man has intervened in many things in an attempt to be pre-emptive, in many cases this has backfired and made for worse problems.


Great examples. I'm not a big fan of the auto industry, but I don't try to simplify my world view by demonizing them either. They have some legitimate reasons why they have not behaved more responsibly. For example, if they unilaterally retool and produce electric cars only. What happens if people don't like them? Foreigners will step in to give Americans what they prefer. So, it has to be left up to government to mandate the changes, but who's to say they make the right decisions, or move to quickly to invest in an expensive technology that will soon become obsolete? State demand driven economies don't have a very good track record so far.

Having said that, there are so many mitigation policies that make sense in and of themselves. Even if Peak Oil and global warming end up being non-issues, we have nothing to lose by following them. Curtailing pollution, better urban planning, trash to energy programs, carbon taxes for conservation purposes etc. We don't have any excuse for not trying harder and accomplishing at least small things right now.
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Re: An analogy that explains much...

Unread postby BlueGhost » Sun 15 Jan 2006, 20:12:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daryl', 'V')ery, very good point Seadragon. Energy and social security are the big two. They have the much in common in the sense that our political system is totally failing us in addressing either.


In a democracy you can't blame the political system for failing to act, it's the fault of the electorate for failing to vote in the right people.
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Re: An analogy that explains much...No action until a crisis

Unread postby ubercynicmeister » Sun 15 Jan 2006, 20:56:28

Hi Oilburner.

LOL, the following may help:

Rule 1: the computer is never wrong.

Rule 2: If the computer is wrong, refer to Rule 1.


Thus if the computer says you're dead, then you're dead.

Mind you,as another saying is: To Err Is Human - it takes a computer to really stuff things up.
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