[Daryl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nocar', ' ')What if USA had not entered WWI? Perhaps that peace treaty had been less painful for the Germans? nocar

[Ludi]

I've never been "proud to be an American," an idea I find strange - proud to happen to be born in a particular country? I feel lucky to be an American and get to enjoy all this prosperity (fleeting as it may be), though there are countries which are "better" in some ways, I feel no urge to move there.

[FatherOfTwo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daryl', 'T')his what I have to say to ungrateful Europeans, Canadians and Australians. We have been paying for your security since WW1 with our money and lives. If it wasn't for the US, you would all be living under a Hitler, Stalin, Tojo, Mao Saddam or God know what other evil force might have emerged. The world is a dangerous place. We have created a stable environment that allows you to whine about our imperfections. Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.

[Madpaddy]

FatherOfTwo,

That was a tremendous post. To add to your point A.)

The US donated billions of dollars worth of weapons and equipment to the UK through the lend/lease programme. When it seemed likely that the loan would never be repaid because Germany looked like winning the war the US rowed in behind Britain to protect its investment so to speak.

76% of the German army was fighting on the Eastern Front so with the benefit of hindsight it seems that Russia would eventually have won the war on their own. Notwithstanding that, if Britain had surrendered or pulled out of the war in 1940 allowing Germany to invade Russia early in 1941, Germany would almost certainly have taken Moscow. That may or may not have led to a Russian surrender - taking Moscow certainly didn't help Napoleon in 1812.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nero', 'A')fter all the news of renditions, secret jails and torture do you find your patriotism has slipped a little. Has it made you embarrassed to be American?

[Daryl]

Heck yeah, I'll debate this a bit. Don't have all the answers, but I'll throw a couple of ideas out there.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FatherOfTwo', ' ')
A) The US was but one of the ALLIES in World War I & II. Contrary to American pop culture’s portrayal of events, it was not the Lone Ranger riding in to save everyone else’s ass. It was an important player in a team effort. The Soviets, the English, the Canadians, the US, everybody was important in defeating the Nazi’s

[arocoun]

I never, ever understood patriotism. I never understood how someone could love their country above others just because they happen to live there. I never understood why some people keep fighting and dieing for their country, instead of justice and freedom themselves, or whatever. I never understood why patriotism is considered to be such a great virtue in itself, and why people are judged by how "patriotic" or "unpatriotic" they are. I never understood how people could treat their country like some kind of god to be worshipped and fought for, or why people are expected to be patriotic or be outcast. I never understood flag-waving, song-singing, or any of those other wierd rituals. I never understood the phrase, "I'm proud to be a [member of X country]." And what the hell does it mean when you say "I love my country?", when the earth hasn't devided itself into little fenced areas--that is what rulers, war, bloodshed, ethnocentrism, and self-proclaimed superiority have done.

I'm neither proud nor ashamed to be an American--I'm completely unfamiliar with such feelings.

-----

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')'ve never been "proud to be an American," an idea I find strange - proud to happen to be born in a particular country? I feel lucky to be an American and get to enjoy all this prosperity (fleeting as it may be), though there are countries which are "better" in some ways, I feel no urge to move there.

[EnergySpin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Madpaddy', '
')
Thank god I live in a country where we are self sufficient in Guinness and Whiskey

[Daryl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FatherOfTwo', 'I') would argue that the US is the most destabilizing force on the planet.

[untothislast]

I still think it possible to have great pride in your country (overall) while retaining the right to be disgusted, whenever a particularly nasty administration comes along to drag it into disrepute. Uncritical patriotism though, is never a welcome development if - underpinning it - is a reluctance to acknowledge those injustices and evil acts undertaken in our name.

Few nations have strutted the world stage, without getting up to some sort of reprehensible criminal activity - and for those with pretensions to 'empire', it's all part of the gameplan. Both the US and UK, for example, have populations dosed up on the propaganda that they're the world's 'square dealers' - fighting for truth and justice for all, when the stark reality is always more pragmatic and squalid. Look at the present UK government for example; apart from currently participating in an illegal, imperialist, and racist occupation, it came to power promising an ethical approach to armaments sales (one of our biggest export earners), yet currently sells its wares in some of the most unstable parts of the world, with scant regard for the consequences.

Growing up as I did during the 1960's, the culture was permeated with endless war movies depicting the Brits as the 'good guys'. Other nations fought dirty wars of course, but we always played with full respect for the rules. And yet recently, thanks to Freedom of Information rulings, we're now learning that the British military ran torture chambers (during and after WW2) that would have put the Gestapo to shame.

[Daryl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('untothislast', 'I') still think it possible to have great pride in your country (overall) while retaining the right to be disgusted, whenever a particularly nasty administration comes along to drag it into disrepute. Uncritical patriotism though, is never a welcome development if - underpinning it - is a reluctance to acknowledge those injustices and evil acts undertaken in our name.

Few nations have strutted the world stage, without getting up to some sort of reprehensible criminal activity - and for those with pretensions to 'empire', it's all part of the gameplan. Both the US and UK, for example, have populations dosed up on the propaganda that they're the world's 'square dealers' - fighting for truth and justice for all, when the stark reality is always more pragmatic and squalid. Look at the present UK government for example; apart from currently participating in an illegal, imperialist, and racist occupation, it came to power promising an ethical approach to armaments sales (one of our biggest export earners), yet currently sells its wares in some of the most unstable parts of the world, with scant regard for the consequences.

Growing up as I did during the 1960's, the culture was permeated with endless war movies depicting the Brits as the 'good guys'. Other nations fought dirty wars of course, but we always played with full respect for the rules. And yet recently, thanks to Freedom of Information rulings, we're now learning that the British military ran torture chambers (during and after WW2) that would have put the Gestapo to shame.

[LadyRuby]

I also feel lucky to have been born in America (not that it's the best place on earth to live, by any stretch, but it's better than many). But I don't think God should bless my country more than others and I don't think I should blindly pledge allegiance to my country since my country is sometimes in the wrong.

I like being an American and some of the values I most treasure, freedom of speech and separation of church and state, are some of the values being threatened by this current administration. I also remember that once America was a role model to much of the world, admired for doing the right thing. Not so today.

I think we may be in the midst of a sea change, however, when America will start to live up to its own ideals. Perhaps the stink of corruption and government run amok, from the present administration, will be the turning point. We can do so much better.

[Daryl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Madpaddy', 'F')atherOfTwo,

That was a tremendous post. To add to your point A.)

The US donated billions of dollars worth of weapons and equipment to the UK through the lend/lease programme. When it seemed likely that the loan would never be repaid because Germany looked like winning the war the US rowed in behind Britain to protect its investment so to speak.

76% of the German army was fighting on the Eastern Front so with the benefit of hindsight it seems that Russia would eventually have won the war on their own. Notwithstanding that, if Britain had surrendered or pulled out of the war in 1940 allowing Germany to invade Russia early in 1941, Germany would almost certainly have taken Moscow. That may or may not have led to a Russian surrender - taking Moscow certainly didn't help Napoleon in 1812.

[Daryl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('LadyRuby', 'I') also feel lucky to have been born in America (not that it's the best place on earth to live, by any stretch, but it's better than many). But I don't think God should bless my country more than others and I don't think I should blindly pledge allegiance to my country since my country is sometimes in the wrong.

I like being an American and some of the values I most treasure, freedom of speech and separation of church and state, are some of the values being threatened by this current administration. I also remember that once America was a role model to much of the world, admired for doing the right thing. Not so today.

I think we may be in the midst of a sea change, however, when America will start to live up to its own ideals. Perhaps the stink of corruption and government run amok, from the present administration, will be the turning point. We can do so much better.

[Madpaddy]

Daryl,

I don't think the US is evil, far from it. More often than not they have been a force for good for the last 100 years. however, what annoys me is the believe held by many Americans that they are the bee all and end all and can do no wrong. In fairness that sort of American is conspiciously absent from this board.

Point taken about the cold war. In fact by the time of D-Day when German final defeat was inevitable, the US and Britain were in a rush to get a foothold on the continent before the Russians ended up holding Europe from Poland to the Pyrenees. Ike is certainly owed a debt of gratitude from all Europeans including us in Ireland. Funny how the French whose bacon he saved will never acknowledge it though !!!

[Daryl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Madpaddy', 'D')aryl,

I don't think the US is evil, far from it. More often than not they have been a force for good for the last 100 years. however, what annoys me is the believe held by many Americans that they are the bee all and end all and can do no wrong. In fairness that sort of American is conspiciously absent from this board.

Point taken about the cold war. In fact by the time of D-Day when German final defeat was inevitable, the US and Britain were in a rush to get a foothold on the continent before the Russians ended up holding Europe from Poland to the Pyrenees. Ike is certainly owed a debt of gratitude from all Europeans including us in Ireland. Funny how the French whose bacon he saved will never acknowledge it though !!!

[Daryl]

Oh, I see you are an Irishman. You might appreciate Gravity's Rainbow even more. Pynchon modeled it in many ways on Joyce's Ulysses.

[Petrodollar]

I just got back from a trip abroad where I spoke to 2000 foreigners. I will offer a grossly generalized answer to the initial post:

1) The majority of the world still likes American people
2) The majority of the world really fears and/or hates President Bush
3) The majority of the world really wanted Kerry to be president, and
4) They really don't understand how Bush won the 2004 election, especially given that the exit polls showed a Kerry victory.

(One european diplomat candidly asked me last week: "Why weren't the Americans in the streets like the Ukranian people were in Nov 2004 when their exit polls showed the election to be fradulent?" He wanted to know "What has happened to America? We don't understand what's going on over there." This was a serious question from a serious person, btw)

Given the original poster is from Canada, here's some evidence:


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Canadians like U.S., not so hot on Bush: poll
CTV.ca News Staff

Canadians like their American neighbours but they aren't crazy about U.S. President George W. Bush and his administration, a new poll has found.

According to an Ipsos-Reid poll for CTV and The Globe and Mail, Bush is coming Tuesday to a country where a steady two-thirds of people or more "disagree fundamentally with the unilateral actions of the Bush administration," John Wright, Ipsos-Reid senior vice-president, told CTV.ca Monday.

"You can be anti-Bush but you're not anti-American," he said.

Wright said the indications in the last few weeks are that Bush is trying to set a more multilateralist tone for his second administration, and that his Canadian visit is a "test round" for this new approach.

It will be interesting to see if Bush succeeds in altering Canadians' views of him, and whether he can bridge some of the distance between himself and Canadians.

Canadians "will look back on this in a couple of weeks and decide if this was something substantive or if it was just a photo op," Wright said.

The numbers

On the issue of Bush's re-election on Nov. 2, there is a clear divide between the two countries.

For Canadians:

58 per cent view Bush's re-election as a bad thing.
26 per cent see it as a good thing.

For Americans:

41 per cent see it as a bad thing
56 per cent see it as a good thing

Within Canada, there was an urban-rural divide on the issue. Sixty per cent of urban respondents thought four more years of Bush is a bad thing, compared to 47 per cent of rural respondents.

However, only 15 per cent of Canadians agree with the following: "At the heart of it, I am actually anti-American -- I don't like or respect anything that the United States or its people stand for."

In that grouping, the most anti-American provinces were B.C. (22 per cent) and Quebec (17 per cent).

Eighty-four per cent of Canadian respondents disagreed with that statement.

When asked how they felt about this statement: "I value and respect the United States and its citizens -- it's just that I disagree fundamentally with their government," 70 per cent of Canadian respondents agreed.

Wright made this observation about Canadians and Americans to CTV News: "There's a fundamental difference between our two countries when it comes to how we see criticism about our governments and their policies.

"In Canada, Canadians are oftentimes easy about criticizing government, but it doesn't make them against the nation or its people," he said.

"In the United States, it's almost indivisible. A criticism about the president can mean a criticism of America or Americans, and that's simply not the case in Canada."

Perhaps Americans make an exception for Canadian criticism. When asked to respond to this statement: "Canada is a solid friend and close, dependable ally of the United States," 85 per cent of Canadians agreed and 82 per cent of Americans agreed.

The poll questioned 1,000 Canadians and 1,000 Americans between Nov. 19 and 22. It is considered accurate within 3.1 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

[Daryl]

I don't know. I think that is a cop out. If the American people are so great, why did they elect such a bad government? Shouldn't the American people accept some resoponsibility for this?

When I lived in Europe in 1979, America might have been at its most popular. I had never traveled abroad and I was struck by two things: 1) how prevalent and pervasive Amercian popular culture was and what a lightning rod you were as an American. I traveled along with a Canadian fellow for awhile. He was ignored by people after he introduced himself, while I was invariably pinned to the mat, asked to explain innumerable issues to people. Evertbody was trying to start an argument with me about something. After observing Europeans interact with each other over time, though, I realized what was going on. They don't like each other. The carping that goes on between the English, French, Germans, whoever is incredible. Each side has a long list of the other's historical national crimes comitted to memory and is ready to spout them out at the drop of a hat. Americans are suprised when they find foreigners don't like them just because we don't get out much.

[Petrodollar]

I hate to digress, but I will offer this retort to your question:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f the American people are so great, why did they elect such a bad government?