[orz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his thread has evolved into a "don't rain on my parade with reality" rant.

[Dezakin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')vershoot is not just a function of not enough energy. Carrying capacity is determined by the least abundant necessity. Liebig's Law.

Unlimited energy in a finite world still has limits.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'N')o it doesnt. Unlimited energy means you're not living in a finite world anymore, as everything becomes a function of energy.

[EnergySpin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'T')his poll simply makes no sense.

[bobcousins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('orz', 'T')here are no limits to our growth given a large and long-lived enough energy source.

[Ludi]

EnergySpin, I can't believe you still aren't able to understand what Monte is saying, but you're still attacking him for having a "hang-up" about technology.

Can you try to understand what I'm writing, if you won't try to understand Monte?

The issue isn't about "prohibiting" or "illegalizing" energy. I've not seen Monte say anything about making power plants illegal. He's talking about a mindset, a worldview, which accepts limits. A worldview which says "enough." If you look at what we've done with the bonus energy from fossil fuels, we've exceeded the planet's biological carrying capacity for humans. We know this to be the case because we are driving many other species extinct, as well as depleting our own portion of the ecosphere. The issue with continuing using bonus energy, rather than relying on the energy from the sun, is that because of our culture's track record with previous bonus energy, it is extremely likely we will continue to damage the Earth's life support systems which sustain us. There's no evidence that we will stop doing this simply because we know we should. We're not stopping now, even though we know we are damaging the systems which we depend on for our existence.

Monte and some of the rest of us are advocating that we stop, not produce more bonus energy, but gradually return to a life based on current solar energy, for the sake of our future as a species.

If you don't understand where this attitude comes from, if you think it comes from hatred of technology, you simply don't understand it. I don't know how to encourage you to research more into the issue of our destruction of the Earth's life systems. Being a life scientist yourself, I would think you'd be interested in this. I just wish you could get past your obvious prejudice and learn more about this issue. Because it's getting really frustrating to see you again and again and again make ad hominem attacks rather than try to understand another point of view.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')Environmentalists and ecologists do not trust energy sources that add supplemental energy to human endeavours since humans act like all other critters and just multiply using this supplemental energy.

[Daryl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('orz', ' ')
There's more places to live in this universe than "Mother Gaia" if one has sufficient energy to build the tools to get there and inhabit the area.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 'Y')our attitude is that we need to have less energy in order to be in harmony with nature because we will never behave in an ethical manner. Wasn't this the main thrust for the Prohibition?
Connect the dots ... did Prohibition work? One cannot make people behave ethically by illegalizing/wiping out our "vices". It did not work with booze, it clearly does not work with drugs and it will not work with energy.

[Daryl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 'Y')our attitude is that we need to have less energy in order to be in harmony with nature because we will never behave in an ethical manner. Wasn't this the main thrust for the Prohibition?
Connect the dots ... did Prohibition work? One cannot make people behave ethically by illegalizing/wiping out our "vices". It did not work with booze, it clearly does not work with drugs and it will not work with energy.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')Environmentalists and ecologists do not trust energy sources that add supplemental energy to human endeavours since humans act like all other critters and just multiply using this supplemental energy.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daryl', '
')I don't think the nuclear advocates on these boards are necessarily starry eyed optimist growth advocates in the Corsi mode. The transition is going to be very difficult. I think energy is going to get expensive and scarce. I doubt nuclear will be able to fuel a new growth boom. It's going to be part of a new era of limits, in the best case. The nuclear advocates on the board are arguing that it has the ability to prevent collapse and die-off, unlike say solar and wind power.

[GoIllini]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')
This thread has evolved into a "don't rain on my parade with reality" rant.

[FatherOfTwo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') calculated to replace our fossil fuel plants in Texas with nukes, we'd need to build 21 new reactors, at least.

Where the heck would we build these, I wonder?

I don't see this happening.

[Daryl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GoIllini', ' ')The fact of the matter is that we will have plenty of time to figure out another way to destroy ourselves before we hit peak nuclear, which is likely hundreds, if not thousands of years off.

[FatherOfTwo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FatherOfTwo', 'I')f so, then why on earth do you insist on bashing nuclear? Why are you not seeing the big picture in this case?

[Caoimhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FatherOfTwo', 'I') understand and agree wholeheartedly that we must learn to live off only the solar flux.
But we cannot go from where we are now to sustainability in one fell swoop. It isn't doable, and the resultant chaos will be too much to overcome. We must have a bridge to get us there and that bridge is nuclear. We must learn to crawl and walk before we can run.

[GoIllini]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daryl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GoIllini', ' ')The fact of the matter is that we will have plenty of time to figure out another way to destroy ourselves before we hit peak nuclear, which is likely hundreds, if not thousands of years off.

[FatherOfTwo]

I'm repeating myself here, but I think it needs repeating.

We must give ourselves the best odds of surviving the transition.
We must give ourselves the best odds of surviving the transition.
We must give ourselves the best odds of surviving the transition.

This to me is the realist's big picture. The utopian big picture is that we somehow go from wild energy orgy, forgo nuclear and learn to live off the solar flux. I’d love for that to be true. Now, how many of you honestly think that is likely?

Does anyone disagree that Problem #1 is surviving the transition? Perhaps you will disagree if you’re of the opinion that humans should be wiped off the face of the planet, be “taught a lesson” for messing with Mother Earth, but other than that, if you want us to survive, learn, gain wisdom, then Peak Oil can’t be such a thorough ass whipping that we are never able to get up off the ground.

Everybody and their dog on this site know that Peak Oil will result in enormous economic hardship. The temptation to resort to resource wars will be strong. Our history is chock full of examples.

So, tell me how we are going to go through all of this and then at the same time tell people, well ya, there is this nuclear technology that we can use to make things “less bad” but we can’t use it because we’ve had such a rip roaring party for the last 100+ years on fossil fuels that now we have to go to the other end of the spectrum. It’s like condemning ourselves to the death penalty instead of 30 years of hard labor.

Fortunately one positive of the current global mindset of never ending growth gives me reason to believe that we’re going to fight like hell (hopefully only figuratively speaking) as we go through this massive transition. Nuclear, coal, everything will be thrown against the wall to see what sticks. Hopefully we’ll be partially successful and not only give ourselves a reprieve from death but also gain some wisdom in the process.

[Ludi]

What I don't understand is why we need MORE power plants. When those of us in the First World already use 5 or so Earth's worth of resources, why do we need to produce MORE energy? What is it FOR? Pardon my allcaps, but I'm just not understanding this. Why, when we're using far more than our share of Earth's energy, do we need to produce MORE ENERGY? When will we say "enough?" How many nuke/coal, whatever plants do we need to build before we say "Stop"?