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Money multiplier makes no sense

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Money multiplier makes no sense

Unread postby lakeweb » Wed 23 Nov 2005, 20:07:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '
')Do I have to quote the FED again? :-D


Seeing as you have glossed over everything but the following, I guess not.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'C')ommodities go up and down in value depending on supply & demand and are influenced by seasonality as well as economic cycles. Take the price chart of any commodity, gold, oil, copper, and adjust the price for inflation or look at it a foreign currency or basket of currencies and you will see falls in price as well as increases independent of inflation and/or the value of the dollar. I would suggest you look at the CRB index to start.


Adjusted for inflation? Well, you said it... Adjusted for inflation gold is still $20/ounce. A nice house built in 1950 is still $7,000.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'i')n a generally falling interest rate environment between 1987 and 2004 which saw Fed funds fall from 18.5% to 1%, now 4%. And the US dollar has both fallen and risen against the euro (legacy currencies), yen and other freely converted currencies.


So? Other currencies are also fiat.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'R')E backed by a promise to pay. Even under a gold standard, loans are promises to pay in the future in exchange for cash or coin today.


A promise to pay and handing me gold in exchange are two different things. Come on Bill, do you really think we can make good on our debt while we don't produce and the boomer generation rolls into retirement?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'A')s for your comments about the purchasing power of the dollar you are confusing the dollar's present value against its future value or its ability to hedge against inflation as a future store of value.


Yep, would be pretty dumb to hold a currency that is destined to inflate.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'I')f you use dollars today to buy appreciating assets, which hedge against inflation, then you will preserve the future value of your dollars today. If you use gold to pay for consumables today, they will not hedge you against inflation in the future.


Now that was just plain silly. Like saying, 'Gold is not an asset, it is money.'

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'O')r do I have to quote the FED? :-D


Well, if you would, it means you have read the material. Then you would understand how the system works. You would also see why we are in a pickle that doesn't seem to have a fix.

What Hath Alan Wrought?

Best, Dan.
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Re: Money multiplier makes no sense

Unread postby MrBill » Thu 24 Nov 2005, 03:52:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')ome on Bill, do you really think we can make good on our debt while we don't produce and the boomer generation rolls into retirement?


First of all I am not American. However, the Boomer Generation is as much to blame for all the ills that America currently faces - over-consumption, budget deficits, the disfunctional 2-party political state which is America - as anyone or any generation before or since. I like to call them the greatest generational wealth transfer (or theft) ever perpetuated. So as for their retirement and promises made to them regarding social benefits, well those were just unfunded promises. In a pay as you go system, it is the ability to pay that matters. So their retirement benefits are aas enshrined in stone as civil servants pensions in Argentina. :oops:

But, really Dan, its not that you're winning the argument, it is just that I cannot be bothered answering you anymore. Enjoy your retirement in Arizona post-peak oil and have a nice life. Cheers. :)
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Re: Money multiplier makes no sense

Unread postby Doly » Thu 24 Nov 2005, 04:59:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lakeweb', '
')Adjusted for inflation? Well, you said it... Adjusted for inflation gold is still $20/ounce. A nice house built in 1950 is still $7,000.


This is something I don't understand at all. Isn't inflation supposed to reflect the percentage that prices rise? How is it possible that the price of something, adjusted for inflation, doesn't give you roughly the current price?
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Re: Money multiplier makes no sense

Unread postby MrBill » Thu 24 Nov 2005, 05:38:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lakeweb', '
')Adjusted for inflation? Well, you said it... Adjusted for inflation gold is still $20/ounce. A nice house built in 1950 is still $7,000.


This is something I don't understand at all. Isn't inflation supposed to reflect the percentage that prices rise? How is it possible that the price of something, adjusted for inflation, doesn't give you roughly the current price?



PV = FV / (1 + i)^n

PV = FV x (1 + i)^-n

where i = interest rate, so substitute for inflation if you want
where n = no. of periods
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Re: Money multiplier makes no sense

Unread postby lakeweb » Sun 04 Dec 2005, 12:57:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')ome on Bill, do you really think we can make good on our debt while we don't produce and the boomer generation rolls into retirement?


First of all I am not American. However, the Boomer Generation is as much to blame for all the ills that America currently faces - over-consumption, budget deficits, the disfunctional 2-party political state which is America - as anyone or any generation before or since. I like to call them the greatest generational wealth transfer (or theft) ever perpetuated. So as for their retirement and promises made to them regarding social benefits, well those were just unfunded promises. In a pay as you go system, it is the ability to pay that matters. So their retirement benefits are aas enshrined in stone as civil servants pensions in Argentina. :oops:


I think you missed the point. This isn't just about our debt; it is what happens to the world if we default.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'B')ut, really Dan, its not that you're winning the argument, it is just that I cannot be bothered answering you anymore.


Of course.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'E')njoy your retirement in Arizona post-peak oil and have a nice life. Cheers. :)


Nice of you to make this about me. But, we are in this together whether you like it or not.

Best, Dan.
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Re: Money multiplier makes no sense

Unread postby lakeweb » Sun 04 Dec 2005, 13:00:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lakeweb', '
')Adjusted for inflation? Well, you said it... Adjusted for inflation gold is still $20/ounce. A nice house built in 1950 is still $7,000.


This is something I don't understand at all. Isn't inflation supposed to reflect the percentage that prices rise? How is it possible that the price of something, adjusted for inflation, doesn't give you roughly the current price?


Hi Doly,
If you are adjusting for inflation it means you are comparing different periods. A single point in time can't be adjusted for inflation.

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