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THE Ford Motor Company Thread (merged)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: Ford AND GM (to axe the working class.....

Postby DigitalCubano » Sat 19 Nov 2005, 14:03:42

I think the better comparison for the post-bankruptcy outlook of the automotive industry is the steel industry because both cases are demonstrative of the same kind of problems, namely legacy costs. In the automobile industry's case, the post-retirement benefits are a big problem. For example, while no one knows just how much GM is weighed down by these obligations, the last estimate I read was something in the neighborhood of $24+ billion. GM's market capitalization is $15 billion. 8O The genesis of this problem goes back 30 years during the whole wage-price control initiative back in the early 70's where the only leverage a lot of these unions had was in negotiating post-retirement benefits, to which the auto industry obliged. Of course, the energy crisis soon hit, opening up the auto market to foreign competition becuase the domestic manufacturers were too slow to adapt. Thus, the rosy outlook that was used to justify these postponed concessions no longer held. Now it's 30 years later and a lot of that work force is retiring, the foreign manufacturers have gained even more market share and the chickens are coming home to roost.

I consider the lack of any substantive, proactive response to this impending problem an indictment on GM and Ford's management teams. Thus, while I loathe the pain that GM and Ford retirees will incur as a result of the bankruptcy process, I also think that the restructuring of their management and manufacturing portfolios will result in companies better suited for the transition to hybrids, EVs and fuel cell vehicles. For example, a forced downsizing of their businesses might necessitate the abandonment of many SUV models in favor of more fuel-efficient designs since that's where the money might be if high fuel prices continue. Programs for alternative fuel vehicles will also become more profitable assets in their R&D portfolios under such a scenario, and more money would be diverted to them, resulting in better designs that could be brought to market sooner at cheaper prices.

The point is that these very rapid shifts can only occur under the purview of the bankruptcy process. The steel industry came out of its bankruptcy process a leaner, better managed industry. Will the same be true of the auto industry?
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Re: Ford AND GM (to axe the working class.....

Postby gego » Sat 19 Nov 2005, 15:03:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', 'W')hat will become of GM and FOrd? Will they just become smaller companies that build only truck/SUVS (only thing they make money on) or will the cease to exist?

I just read how Delphi wants to cut a crapload of jobs...thats a lot of vehicle parts!

Will they use robots? Chinese slaves?

Atleast WalMart is hiring.


If the airlines are an example, the creditors will become the owners and continue to operate the companies until they realize that the situation is impossible and then new creditors will take over in a second bankruptcy, on and on. What should have happened in the airline industry is that the failed companies should have been allowed to close down. The surviving companies would then have been in a position to charge higher fares that covered their costs, and there would have been less travel and less energy usage. What happened was that the failed compaines were kept afloat with the creditors being the new owners and the same overcapicity kept fares too low which encouraged more travel and also drug down the more effecient companies.

I think history will prove also that the attempt by auto manufacturers to bring on alternative vehicles will be a huge waste of resources. The real problem is that we depend on all this air and auto travel which is unsustainable in the long run, and trying to postpone the inevitable by keeping the old lifestyle alive just keeps resources from going where they need to go.
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Re: Ford AND GM (to axe the working class.....

Postby Leanan » Sat 19 Nov 2005, 20:17:10

I don't think bankruptcy will help. The reason companies like Toyota don't face the same kind of "legacy costs" as GM and Ford is that other industrialized nations have national healthcare and pensions. We're the only country where people people get healthcare and retirement through their employers. Some large corporations are starting to support universal healthcare now, because they can't even compete with Canada when they have to pay for healthcare and Canadian companies do not.
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Re: Ford AND GM (to axe the working class.....

Postby MonteQuest » Sat 19 Nov 2005, 21:03:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KevO', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'C')an you PLEASE learn to use the URL button if you're going to post links that long?


I KEEP ASKING HOW BUT NOBODY WILL TELL ME!!
I'm sure it's a doddle and do it I will if some mutha would point me

thank ye kindly


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Re: Ford AND GM (to axe the working class.....

Postby Specop_007 » Sat 19 Nov 2005, 22:39:30

As bad as it sounds, I really have no sympathy for the auto companies or the workers. They made their bed, they can lie in it. This is what happens when you demand to be paid far more then market conditions would otherwise give you.
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Re: Ford AND GM (to axe the working class.....

Postby skyemoor » Sat 19 Nov 2005, 23:03:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'A')s bad as it sounds, I really have no sympathy for the auto companies or the workers. They made their bed, they can lie in it. This is what happens when you demand to be paid far more then market conditions would otherwise give you.


Actually, the people making the decisions about the market segment killed them the most. Staying with big SUVs was a short-sighted corporate greed move that worked for them for over a decade, but they neglected to look past the next quarter.
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Re: Ford AND GM (to axe the working class.....

Postby Dukat_Reloaded » Sat 19 Nov 2005, 23:15:27

GM and Ford going under has nothing to do with PO, it's all about economics. Chinese and Japanese companies can produce a better car cheaper than what Ford and GM can and americans are buying those cars instead of Ford or GM's because they are better value, it's that simple. Disposable party cups cost 5 cents each to manufacture in the US, were in china it cost .1cent, ofcourse everyone is going to buy the chinese cups and the american manufacturer is going to go under. I would also like to point out that the US dollar has been rallying against other countries making the US imports even cheaper and the US manufactued goods more expensive. I personally myself don't buy goods based on where they were made to help boost the local economey, I allways buy the cheapest no matter what.
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Re: Ford AND GM (to axe the working class.....

Postby Leanan » Sun 20 Nov 2005, 08:34:35

I think it does have something to do with peak oil. American automakers put all their eggs in the SUV/truck basket. They make more money on larger vehicles. Last spring, even as oil climbed to record highs, GM said they were going to stick with SUVs because "their customers don't care about gas prices."

Toyota and Honda are way ahead when it comes to hybrid vehicles, high-mileage cars, etc. Perhaps because there's much more demand for that kind of car in Japan. Toyota is clearly looking ahead to an age where oil is scarce and expensive. They've researched hydrogen, and find it a ludicrous idea. GM is betting on hydrogen. (Actually, I don't think they really believe in hydrogen, either. They're just hoping to get some tax credits, since the dominant political party, the GOP, supports hydrogen.)
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Re: Ford AND GM (to axe the working class.....

Postby ALBY » Sun 20 Nov 2005, 11:47:04

silly peak oilers. don't you know, the american way of life is non negotiable ! dick cheney said so ! :roll:
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Re: Ford AND GM (to axe the working class.....

Postby Mesuge » Sun 20 Nov 2005, 12:04:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', '
')Airlines are ailing, but their market share is protected, to a great extent, because the FAA decides who can fly where, and when. You won't have foreign airlines taking over the Boston to St. Louis run.


That's the way it used to be. EU surendered a couple of days ago and the way to deregulation of US<>EU transatlantic air market is wide open..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4451440.stm

This will not stop and domestic flight operation will be next in the near future..
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Re: Ford AND GM (to axe the working class.....

Postby emersonbiggins » Mon 28 Nov 2005, 13:47:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dukat', 'G')M and Ford going under has nothing to do with PO, it's all about economics.


Oh, it's not? :roll: So the economics of America filling up on Suburbans versus hybrids isn't manifested in the latest GM plant closure announcement? I'd say this is exactly what PO looks like; the excesses and decadence of the cheap-oil economy are drawing nearer to a close. Naturally, companies that refuse to admit this (as GM has done countless times) are finding themselves SOL.
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Re: Ford AND GM (to axe the working class.....

Postby oilcanboyd » Mon 28 Nov 2005, 22:03:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'I') don't think bankruptcy will help. The reason companies like Toyota don't face the same kind of "legacy costs" as GM and Ford is that other industrialized nations have national healthcare and pensions. We're the only country where people people get healthcare and retirement through their employers. Some large corporations are starting to support universal healthcare now, because they can't even compete with Canada when they have to pay for healthcare and Canadian companies do not.

Well here is a Canadian perspective. A close friend of mine left my work place to a better job at Toyota just down the road here in Canada. I made 60k,..He cleared 110k health care costs the same, most benefits the same.
Bottom line: His hourly wage increased by nearly double what I make. AND we are both Certified Industrial Maintenance Mechanics. Here in Canada the average GM/Ford/D-C "labourer" makes $73/hr, Toyota makes 47.25/hr, the average Tier 3 Auto parts supplier factory worker makes $22/hr, (I make for clarification sakes-25.10/hr) PLUS, the above mentioned people also get 5yrs of 95% of their wages IF they get laid off permanently or temp. I "only" get 22wks of 66% of my gross pay.

Sorry folks, its the unions that got us all in this trouble way back in the 70's. The local GM dealership here in town charges 102/hr labour to fix your GM. Yet the poor low life mechanic only takes home $18.70/hr. No wonder cars aint selling We can't afford them or have them fixed when average wages in town here is ball park 16/hr.

Oh Pensions, we only get what management calls a suppliment pension. I'll let ya know when I retire what I get but other retires have said 600/mnth that after 41yrs service to the company. What does a Big Three retiree get?

The scales of life are out of balance thanks to globalisation and our governments wanting more trade between countries.

I know this is off topic to peak oil but I have to vent when I read this cus I 've been reading a lot of the big three failure. There is a lot more I can say but this is enough for here. Just remember a Shanghia auto worker is happy to go to work cus there is a shower, food, toilet, and warmth where he works at Honda. Don't get me wrong, I dont want to see GM collapse, but I called it way back last year, nick named it the collapse of the Roman Empire!

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Re: Ford AND GM (to axe the working class.....

Postby oilcanboyd » Mon 28 Nov 2005, 22:16:05

[quote="dukat"]Chinese and Japanese companies can produce a better car cheaper than what Ford and GM can and americans are buying those cars instead of Ford or GM's because they are better value, it's that simple. quote]

Question:

Why does it take two leading N.A. Auto manufacturers to collaborate forces- AKA knowledge and develope a 6 spd auto transmission? I am talking about the next gen type 7 tranny that GM and Ford are making together. Why can't one make it and trump the other? Education? Dedication? The Asian people take their jobs very seriously to the extent that they will be suspended without pay just for showing up on thier vacation-timeoff!!

Sorry folks, this isn't realated but had to add my two cents worth. The auto industry is the driving force in our town and it has every one talking at break time about it.
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Re: Ford AND GM (to axe the working class.....

Postby cube » Tue 29 Nov 2005, 14:53:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'A')s bad as it sounds, I really have no sympathy for the auto companies or the workers. They made their bed, they can lie in it. This is what happens when you demand to be paid far more then market conditions would otherwise give you.
ouch...sounds harsh! However I think you're onto something here Specop. How can I have sympathy for an auto worker when there's literally tons of other people working just as hard but for only 1/3rd the pay? Fast food, Walmart, retail employees, ect...

The writing was already on the wall a LONG time ago. In todays world of globalization, it was only a matter of time when American car companies would be on the chopping block.
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Re: Ford AND GM (to axe the working class.....

Postby strider3700 » Tue 29 Nov 2005, 17:14:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('oilcanboyd', '
')Oh Pensions, we only get what management calls a suppliment pension. I'll let ya know when I retire what I get but other retires have said 600/mnth that after 41yrs service to the company. What does a Big Three retiree get?


600$/month would have been an excellent wage 41 years ago, hell 30 years ago it would have been pretty good. It's really a shame that inflation has kicked the crap out of everything making old wages next to worthless.

Without good investing and luck very few retirement programs out there will survive the baby boom retirement.
shame on us, doomed from the start
god have mercy on our dirty little hearts
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Ford's fight for survival

Postby Leanan » Fri 20 Jan 2006, 12:16:55

There's a rumor that Ford will announce next week that they're pulling out of the minivan market.

Fortune thinks Ford is fighting for survival.
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Re: Ford's fight for survival

Postby PrairieMule » Fri 20 Jan 2006, 12:33:09

Smart move, no way they can compete with Dodge or Honda. I have mixed feelings about Ford. I purchased a 1991 Ranger new right off the lot and replaced it 1999 with a 96' Honda Accord. At 70,000 miles the Ranger had everything falling off, the Accord on the other hand seems to have a better fit and finish. Still rolling strong at 117K. I got the wife a 2001 Honda CRV no problems yet at 71K. The only American vehicle I would consider buying would be a GM or Chevy Fullsize Truck, they seem to hold up better over time. Can't say I miss Oldsmobile, Plymouth, or soon to die Buick.
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Re: Ford's fight for survival

Postby emersonbiggins » Fri 20 Jan 2006, 12:33:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'T')here's a rumor that Ford will announce next week that they're pulling out of the minivan market.

Fortune thinks Ford is fighting for survival.


I can't say that the minivan segment has ever been the breadwinner for any automaker (except Chrysler in the '90s), much less Ford. Most suburbanites have long since transitioned to SUVs, however impractical they are for hauling kids to soccer matches and shopping malls. That this marks the beginning of the end for Ford is probably true enough, though. I expect to see Ford execs calling for the end of the Mercury brand any week now.
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Re: Ford's fight for survival

Postby Leanan » Fri 20 Jan 2006, 13:02:26

My first car was a Ford Taurus. Not as well-made as a Japanese car, but a pleasing design. Comfortable and attractive (though maintenance was a pain - unlike with Japanese cars).

I don't care for the current Tauruses. The original Taurus had such a striking design everyone copied it. Today's Taurus is just kind of generic-looking. It also seems more cramped somehow.

I now drive a Corolla, and don't expect to own another car. I'll either drive this one into the ground, or live in it when there's no more gas available. :wink:
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Re: Ford's fight for survival

Postby emersonbiggins » Fri 20 Jan 2006, 13:12:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'M')y first car was a Ford Taurus.


I have a 2000 Taurus now, 87k miles on it & I'm coping with a few problems now, namely the speed sensor (which controls the ABS warning light; traction light; parking brake light, etc...) is out and I think an O2 sensor is out, which renders the car uninspectable come May. :x

In a normal car, I might spend the grand or so to get it fixed, but when the KBB says its only worth $3k in 'good' condition, why even bother?

I think I'm getting a Jetta TDi in May. :wink:
Or I'll ride the bus. (there's no train in Austin :x)
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