[coyote]

peace unto you as well mididoctors... but i don't think i've been fooled. in fact, i think we actually agree on this. i was just attempting to explain where that number might have come from; and it is true that there is less energy in a gallon of gasoline than the energy that was required to make it. but i agree that the original report was probably meant to mislead. just look at the source.

[Antimatter]

It isn't that hard to understand. You have 100 joules of oil. You use (for example) 15 joules to refine it into desired products and transport it. You have 85J to use out of an original 100J. May as well talk about the EROEI of a power plant.

[mididoctors]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('coyote', ' ')and it is true that there is less energy in a gallon of gasoline than the energy that was required to make it. .

[mididoctors]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'M')ididoctor is absolutely correct. This quoted document is junk. It mixes measures--comparing an efficiency fraction of petroleum with an EROEI calculation for biofuels.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')2. The oft-quoted 1.3:1 EROEI for biofuels is nonsense and does in no way account for all the necessary agricultural/industrial fermentation inputs. You only drill a oil well once and for years fuel essentially pumps itself out of the ground, into the pipeline, and all the way to the refinery. Just the ag part of biofuels requires monthly applications of industrial energy--fertilizer planting, cultivation, herbicides, harvesting, transport etc. And then grinding, electricity, water, heating for fermentation.

[dooberheim]

One reason we don't see smaller cars here is US crash standards. For example, Suzuki made a smaller version of the Kaltus (Metro/Swift) for Japanese domestic markets, but they can't sell it here. It doesn't pass the crash standards.

DK

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dooberheim', 'O')ne reason we don't see smaller cars here is US crash standards.

[Caoimhan]

I just love the argument, "It's not as good (energy rich) as oil, so let's not do it!"

Like the last poster said, oil isn't bubbling up out of the ground like it used to. Secondary and tertiary methods are being used these days for recovery, and that takes additional energy. Light-Sweet Crude (LSC) is getting more scarce, and we're having to do additional cracking of Heavy-Sour Crude (HSC), and that takes additional energy.

Remember, one of the most significant implications in Peak Oil, is that the second half of oil reserves is the more difficult half to extract and refine.

So who the f*** cares that bio-fuels aren't as good as the wonderful Light-Sweet Crude we've been enjoying for decades? NOTHING can compete with it. We know that.

What I have a problem with is folks like Pimental lying about bio-fuels requiring more energy to produce than they yield. It just ain't so!

[dooberheim]

If you have a lot of time and patience, they are here:

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/FMVSS/

There are standards that specify things like rear impact protection, roof crush resistance, intrusion of steering column into passenger space, all sorts of things like that. Many of these things large cars do better just cause they are, well, large. Sure, some small cars pass them too, but it takes a lot more engineering. In a country as enamored with size as the US, I'd guess a lot of manufacturers overseas don't feel that they'd ever recoup their development costs to make their smallest cars comply.

DK

[lorenzo]

How bizarre. In almost all countries on the planet, diesel fuel is (much) cheaper than gasoline. Except in the US (and Burundi). In most countries, diesel is between 10 and 30% cheaper than gasoline, in some up to 40%.

http://www.international-fuel-prices.com

I don't understand why the US is such an exception. Does anyone have an explanation?

[BabyPeanut]

High demand and low supply?

[cornholio]

I was excited about the possibility of buying a diesel VW this spring, but the more I learn the less inclined I am to do that. Diesel vehicles are more efficient (higher mpg) but as diesel is now costing 30% more than gasoline that efficiency is cancelled out. From this article it seems that refinery capacity for diesel is limited in the US (and will stay that way) making diesel higher. Additionally diesel is most popular in Europe, meaning that they will not export diesel to bail us out as they will for gasoline.

[rogerhb]

A good reason is TAX. Petrol is taxed more heavily than diesel in many countries.

In NZ Petrol is $1.50 per litrer and around $1.00 per liter for diesel.

[lorenzo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BabyPeanut', 'H')igh demand and low supply?

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cornholio', ' ')diesel is most popular in Europe, meaning that they will not export diesel to bail us out as they will for gasoline.

[peaker_2005]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', 'H')ow bizarre. In almost all countries on the planet, diesel fuel is (much) cheaper than gasoline. Except in the US (and Burundi). In most countries, diesel is between 10 and 30% cheaper than gasoline, in some up to 40%.

http://www.international-fuel-prices.com

I don't understand why the US is such an exception. Does anyone have an explanation?

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'O')ur agriculture revolution is completely dependent on fossil fuels-for equipment, water, fuel, fertilizer, biocides, transport, processing and distribution. It takes 10 calories of energy to make 1 calorie of food in the US.
Conveting the food into a liquid transport fuel takes even more.

How could the byproduct of such an entropic petroleum-dependent industrial system fuel that system. This is perpetual-fuel. Even if it could, there would not be enough left over to drive mom and the kids to the soccer game.

[EnergySpin]

I will try and answer the answer in a abbreviated form, cause this was the subject of the "How to lie about the EROIE thread".
In order to get gasoline we have to do 2 things:
A) get oil from the ground
B) refine oil to gasoline

We gain energy in the first process .... but we lose in the second. This is just the first 2 thermodynamical laws at work because:
1) gasoline is only a fraction of oil
2) one needs to input energy to power the refinery. If one did not have to input energy then oil would "spontaneously" transform to gasoline. Let's call C the cost of refining one barrel of oil to gasoline and f the distillate fraction (i.e. the % of oil that can be refined to gasoline)

Enough with the theory ... lets look at the numbers now:
In step A): we invest x units of energy to get back 30 *x units of energy (EROEI is 20)
In Step B): Each of the 30*x units of energy is refined to gasoline at the expense of 30*x*C units of energy.

The EROEI of the process is then Out(Steps A+B)/In(Steps A+B) or

30*x*f/(x+30*x*C) = 30*f/(1+30*C)

The 0.8 number .... is the EROEI of the second step i.e. f/(1+C) ... so one has to solve one equation with two unknows => one can do whatever one wants with this number. IThis is the trick that Pimentel and NREL are using to lie about gasoline/ethanol/biofuels ....
When I last did a google search about fractional fistillation of oil to gasoline, I found that we can process 1 barrel of oil to 0.5 barrels of gasoline, and the energy input to refine one barrel of oil is equivalent to 0.12 barrels. Contingent on this info f =0.5, C =0.12 and the EROEI of pumping oil from the ground to turn it into gasoline is :
30*0.4/(1+30 * 12) =15/4.6 = 3.26 which is hardly negative

Note that my numbers would give an EROEI for the second stage equal to 0.44 ... which would seem to contradict the 0.8 number. But the latter also gives credit to byproducts .... which I have not. If one is interested in the EROIE of fractional distillation but giving credit to all products(cerosene, plastics, diesel, gasoline, other feedstock) , then f is close to 0.95 and the calculation now reads:
30*0.95/(1+30*12) = 6.2

Take home point: read carefully the way people qualify their statements. Both NREL and Pimentel (especially him) have relied on a little bit of EROEI propaganda for different purposes. At least NREL are very careful when the point out that when it comes to energy policy the relevant decision is the one that asks how best to use the x barrels of oil we are importing from Saudi. Stated in those terms .... the question has a pretty clear answer: instead of turning this into gasoline, turn it into ethanol. You will get more energy (which comes from photosynthesis).
But if one changes one's point of reference ... then different questions are important .