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I dont believe in...

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 15 Jul 2005, 15:16:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', '
')




$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '
')I could go on and on. Faith is everywhere.


Precisely the problem I am addressing and trying to kill.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '
')Is it always warranted? Not by a long shot, but its a constant in life, because it is necessary and indispensible. I have a feeling there's going to be a great deal of loss of faith right around the corner. Not a good thing when that happens, but it appears to be inevitable. :(


This is the product of your upbringing because you have apparently never tested otherwise. You just blindly believe this crap without ever challenging it in real terms.
Blindly believe what crap? Reverse Speech? So you want to kill off everyone's faith? Good luck. Your best bet is to just wait awhile because I think Peak Oil is going to do that for you. Then when everyone has lost their faith in anything and they get scared and depressed, you can jump and holler, "AT LAST! NO MORE STINKING FAITH!" But then, some new, even crazier faiths will come along and you will have to back to pouting about 'stupid people'.
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Unread postby Bobbotov » Fri 15 Jul 2005, 15:25:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '
')Blindly believe what crap? Reverse Speech? So you want to kill off everyone's faith? Good luck. Your best bet is to just wait awhile because I think Peak Oil is going to do that for you. Then when everyone has lost their faith in anything and they get scared and depressed, you can jump and holler, "AT LAST! NO MORE STINKING FAITH!" But then, some new, even crazier faiths will come along and you will have to back to pouting about 'stupid people'.


Not reverse speech particularly although I still do not know what it is you believe about it. The fact that you can hear legible English words in reverse speech is no more earth shattering than seeing faces in peeling paint as I stated. So what significance does that have especially since you agreed it is not intentional?

I am talking about the fact that you believe faith is indispensible for living and I am here to tell you it is not. I am not trying to prosletyze anyone out of believing anything. I am just relating to you the fact that I am living proof that it is possible to live your life with impunity without having to believe in anything. All of this stuff I am killing for myself. I am not trying to save your ass or even die for your sins. You said faith is everywhere NOT in everyone. I am killing faith/belief where I encounter it in my life not with everyone I meet. Big distinction that you have missed.

Peak Oil is the perfect place to return to because I believe the raison d'etre of this site is that people know we are running out of oil. They don't have to believe we are because it is a fact. The issue is timing and a whole host of other iffy aspects that bring together people to discuss alternative scenarios in the post oil world.
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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 15 Jul 2005, 15:34:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', '
')Big distinction that you have missed.
Me? Miss a big distinction? Impossible!
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Unread postby Bobbotov » Fri 15 Jul 2005, 15:35:18

If you can have blind faith can you also have blind knowledge?
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Unread postby Bobbotov » Tue 19 Jul 2005, 11:04:12

I guess I am the Ultimate Man Standing.
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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Tue 19 Jul 2005, 18:51:25

What the heck is going on with these crop circles?
There is an account of an eye witness who saw them being made by some metalic shapes hovering over the wheat:

http://www.earthfiles.com/news/news.cfm ... nvironment

Image

Image

Image
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Unread postby Bobbotov » Wed 20 Jul 2005, 12:45:32

I see you are throwing bricks again, Ignatz.
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Re: I dont believe in...

Unread postby EnviroEngr » Tue 06 Sep 2005, 12:53:13

PMS,

Is this the right thread?
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Re: I dont believe in...

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Tue 06 Sep 2005, 15:53:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnviroEngr', 'P')MS,

Is this the right thread?
Yes!. I forgot about this one, EE. This is where we talked about reverse speech.
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Re: I dont believe in...

Unread postby EnviroEngr » Fri 09 Sep 2005, 01:53:35

I'll go mining then and bullet my lists in outline format as I see things that make an impression.
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Reversible Logic

Unread postby EnviroEngr » Fri 28 Oct 2005, 18:59:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')
playing speech backward on tape and coming up with anything significant--!tishlluB

Penultimate--How about Fruedian dream theory? Tishllub, tishllub, tishllub.

Playing speech backwards on tape and revealing embedded reverse-speech is for real as far as I'm concerned. Anybody else heard of that? Holy smokes! This guy recorded his little toddler daughter on tape making apparently gibberish noises. When he played it backwards it sounded like she said 'what's that?' He went on to play backwards speeches of politicians and found that when you play it backwards there will from time to time emerge from the gibberish fairly clear sets of words. For instance, he played a speech Clinton was giving to a crowd once and embedded in the speech in reverse speech were the words 'see's little breasts'. I kid you not! The theory is that the infant brain first learns speech by analysing what they hear in a last thing heard to first thing heard order. And in making their first efforts to speak themselves speak backwards. Later on the brain developes and turns it all around and most of us lose the ability to speak or hear backwards. The early patterns remain in the mind however so that we effectively speak from time to time in a kind of palindrome manner except that the reverse speech isn't saying the same thing as the forward speech is saying. Maybe you have heard of the famous palindrome, "A Man, A Plan, A Canal, Panama". This has got to be one of the wildest and entirely plausible things I ever heard on Coast to Coast AM.

So you're not buying the Herr Doktor Freud's theories, huh? heh heh, OK. (tishllub, that's funny)


Ah Ha!!

This is what you were referring to.

OK. Yes, I've had experience with this. I was able to disable the drive motor on my old phonograph with the amp still powered up; I also had access to a reel-to-reel tape deck.

Can things be distinctly and intelligibly heard on recordings without invoking Rorschach? Yes, beyond even the faintest shadow of a doubt. Should this phenomenon be studied? Yes, I would give it to a Neuro-linguistics researcher to unravel. Someone like Noam Chomsky would be an excellent analyst for this kind of work.


Some critical thinking questions to start with:

1) Does this occur in other languages the same way it occurs in English?
2) If not, which ones will it not work in? Why?
3) What functions does language perform in human cognition that, on a conscious level, are not perceptible?
4) How does language bridge thought with action?
5) Symbol processing is usually only a small portion of what a brain does in an activity cycle. Symbols, in and of themselves, can induce brain states independent of any precursory streams of consciousness or processing of external stimuli. What is the range of the power of language in determining future human behavior? and, Does language reflect the structure of the Cosmos or is it entirely arbitrary and only an invention of the species using it?


I can neither confirm nor deny the 'meaning' of the existence of clearly understandable words that arise out of the soup of sounds that are heard when playing back recordings in English in reverse. But, like so many things of this nature, it does beckon the curious to explore the less traveled roads of human experience - if for no other reason than to see over the next horizon.

I find it highly plausible that the Human Project is one of uncountably many 'programs' running in the universe on a particular level for some purpose well beyond our mortal comprehension. And, that's just looking at it from the point of view of Beta Consciousness - a la, the Norm or Consensus Reality; the world of hard, stable, touchable, visible, hearable objects. When Alpha, Theta or Delta, come into play...

Why... I'd have to invent a whole new language just to talk about it.....

Maybe worth the effort before too long as I'm bumping into more and more people who are having tangible yet frustratingly ineffable 'altered states of consciousness' experiences along these lines - most simply because they're paying attention to the signals; others because they're becoming progressively more sensitive.
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Re: Reversible Logic

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sat 29 Oct 2005, 02:10:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnviroEngr', ' ')
Can things be distinctly and intelligibly heard on recordings without invoking Rorschach? Yes, beyond even the faintest shadow of a doubt. Should this phenomenon be studied? Yes, I would give it to a Neuro-linguistics researcher to unravel. Someone like Noam Chomsky would be an excellent analyst for this kind of work.
David Oates says he would love it if someone with academic credentials to look into it but nobody will touch it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Does this occur in other languages the same way it occurs in English?
It would certainly seem that that question could easily be decided, but I haven't heard of it being done. If it's real, then it should be in other languages, too. (BTW, this is just an aside, but the doctor and writer Lewis Thomas wrote in one of his books about how the word for the pupil of the eye also means little child in many languages - just as in English. The theory offered is that the dual use of the word reflects the fact that little children may have made up many of the words in languages around the world and that when a little child looks into the pupil of another little child's eye, he sees the reflection of himself there.)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')oes language reflect the structure of the Cosmos or is it entirely arbitrary and only an invention of the species using it?
This is akin to the question of whether mathematics is 'invented' or 'discovered'. Has anyone answered that?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') can neither confirm nor deny the 'meaning' of the existence of clearly understandable words that arise out of the soup of sounds that are heard when playing back recordings in English in reverse. But, like so many things of this nature, it does beckon the curious to explore the less traveled roads of human experience - if for no other reason than to see over the next horizon.
It's a fascinating subject. I did do an experiment with the reverse speech examples at Oates' website where I tried to hear the reverse words without knowing what Oates said was supposed to be there. My hearing perception is very bad, but even I could clearly hear at least some of the words. Of course, once I read what Oates says is there, I can hear it quite 'clearly.' Suggestion, perhaps.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') find it highly plausible that the Human Project is one of uncountably many 'programs' running in the universe on a particular level for some purpose well beyond our mortal comprehension.Of that, I'm certain.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')aybe worth the effort before too long as I'm bumping into more and more people who are having tangible yet frustratingly ineffable 'altered states of consciousness' experiences along these lines - most simply because they're paying attention to the signals; others because they're becoming progressively more sensitive.Makes you wonder sometimes just what's coming down the road.
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Re: I dont believe in...

Unread postby eastbay » Sat 29 Oct 2005, 07:02:39

I can't post what I do NOT believe in because it would upset too many members here. I'll keep it to myself and a few trusted friends.

Many years ago I used to shoot off my mouth all the time about what a load of garbage this strange and surreal 'belief' is and it only upset the brainwashed 'true believers'...lol. And a few family members quit speaking to me... it just wasn't worth the hassle any more to mention it. Thank goodness my dear wife is with me on this or we could never get along as well as we do. My first wife divorced me because of it, so she claimed, and that shows how emotional people can get over one little silly issue.

But I still don't believe in it and never will either because it's total nonsense.

Ok, maybe I'll offer a hint... no, better not. Well just one... no, maybe some other time, but feel free to guess away...lol.

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Re: I dont believe in...

Unread postby Omnitir » Sat 29 Oct 2005, 18:45:46

Yeah, I don't believe in God either. Not a big deal.



Or do you not believe that the world is real or something?
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Re: Reversible Logic

Unread postby katkinkate » Sat 29 Oct 2005, 21:29:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '.')..Playing speech backwards on tape and revealing embedded reverse-speech is for real as far as I'm concerned. Anybody else heard of that?......


I've heard of it. I've always thought it another example of humanity's penchant for finding meaningful patterns in random noise even when there is none. Haven't you ever heard snatches of melody in white noise (computer fan, radio static) or seen pictures formed in the protrubances and shadows in the rough textures of some walls? I had a howling wolf's head on my wall when I was a child if I looked at it from the right direction with the overhead light on.
Kind regards, Katkinkate

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Re: I dont believe in...

Unread postby threadbear » Sat 29 Oct 2005, 21:34:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'I') can't post what I do NOT believe in because it would upset too many members here. I'll keep it to myself and a few trusted friends.

Many years ago I used to shoot off my mouth all the time about what a load of garbage this strange and surreal 'belief' is and it only upset the brainwashed 'true believers'...lol. And a few family members quit speaking to me... it just wasn't worth the hassle any more to mention it. Thank goodness my dear wife is with me on this or we could never get along as well as we do. My first wife divorced me because of it, so she claimed, and that shows how emotional people can get over one little silly issue.

But I still don't believe in it and never will either because it's total nonsense.

Ok, maybe I'll offer a hint... no, better not. Well just one... no, maybe some other time, but feel free to guess away...lol.

EastBay


Your first wife divorced you because you are a mirror image of those you revile--overly emotional and given to hissy fits if someone doesn't agree with your personal cosmology. Hardened atheists and bible thumping weirdos lack a rational spirit of true inquiry. Sorry for being hard on you, but the disdainful attitude is tiresome.
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Re: Reversible Logic

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sat 29 Oct 2005, 21:45:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('katkinkate', '
')I've heard of it. I've always thought it another example of humanity's penchant for finding meaningful patterns in random noise even when there is none. Haven't you ever heard snatches of melody in white noise (computer fan, radio static) or seen pictures formed in the protrubances and shadows in the rough textures of some walls? I had a howling wolf's head on my wall when I was a child if I looked at it from the right direction with the overhead light on.
Yes, the penchant you mention is real. Sometimes if I'm staring at the ceiling, faces will pop out of the textures without my even looking for them. Somewhere in this thread is a link to the reverse speech website. You could try the same experiment I did, for a lark. I held up a piece of paper to the monitor to block off the supposed text of the message and then listened. Maybe you'll find something going on here that's very intriguing, or maybe you won't. If you do this out of curiosity, let us know the results.
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Re: I dont believe in...

Unread postby katkinkate » Sat 29 Oct 2005, 22:34:43

Had a quick look and listen. I'm not convinced there's anything really meaningful there, except that people are very open to suggestion. I couldn't hear much and what might be construed as words were so distorted they were hard to make out. I know many people who have trouble understanding someone with a different accent of english than they're used to, I can't see them getting anything significant out of garbled gobbledegook, unless they were prompted to find it.

My assessment: something like 20% random chance the reversed sounds make words and 80% suggestion in the mind of the listener.
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Re: I dont believe in...

Unread postby Omnitir » Sat 29 Oct 2005, 22:43:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')Your first wife divorced you because you are a mirror image of those you revile--overly emotional and given to hissy fits if someone doesn't agree with your personal cosmology. Hardened atheists and bible thumping weirdos lack a rational spirit of true inquiry. Sorry for being hard on you, but the disdainful attitude is tiresome.

Yeah, it’s a strange attitude that some people have. I’ve know a few people that rant and rave about how pathetic religious people are, pushing their beliefs on others and being close minded etc. Yet if you dare oppose their own beliefs, even just for conversational sake, they start pushing their own beliefs and acting exactly like the religious types they so revile.

Sheesh, if you truly don’t believe in God, then don’t let the notion of religion get you so upset. Some atheists act more like they are angry with God rather then simply not believing in one.
"Mother Nature is a psychopathic bitch, and she is out to get you. You have to adapt, change or die." - Tihamer Toth-Fejel, nanotech researcher/engineer.
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Re: I dont believe in...

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sat 29 Oct 2005, 22:52:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('katkinkate', '
')My assessment: something like 20% random chance the reversed sounds make words and 80% suggestion in the mind of the listener.
But it is truly amazing how well the suggestion works. Once you read what Oates says he's found in these tapes, it's extremely easy to agree. There is sort of an "A Ha!" feeling and it really does sound like the words are there, and that furthermore, they have some kind of relationship to what's being said forwards. Also, that's a 20% chance you give to a remarkable possibility: a new vista to the unconscious mind.
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