I don’t know much of the history of the Amish, in fact I knew very little until we moved - by coincidence, very close to quite a few Amish families. I think that you are correct in that they do not believe in fighting for a political entity, how deep that goes as far as personal protection I don’t know.
But the Amish own weapons – at least around here they do. To me it seems strange that in the complete breakdown scenario where armed groups wander the countryside killing and pillaging at will, the only group remaining unchanged would be the Amish, of course I could be wrong and they would allow themselves to be wiped out
The point regarding the Fantasy Rambo is in regard to the over-armed and under-trained individual who could very well be more a liability than asset.
But, in my estimate, the whole anarchy scenario is pretty far down the probability scale.
My earlier remark regarding becoming part of the community may be a little harsh.
While we have never been invited to any of their functions they are very friendly people and I think would lend a hand if needed.
I told this story before but I’ll tell it again. We gave some cookies to various neighbors including several Amish families last Christmas. Christmas Eve we opened the back door to find a horse drawn wagon filled with little face buried in blankets caroling our house. Not a big deal but a nice welcome to the neighborhood.
PeakOil is You
THE Amish Thread (merged)
Re: Living near the Amish - a key to survival?
by Pops » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 11:15:06
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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The Amish
by uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Thu 20 Oct 2005, 13:15:21
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')oyal Journal - Amish May Be Good Neighbors, but not their horses. By ALEXEI BARRIONUEVO
Published: October 18, 2005
LOYAL, Wis., Oct. 14 - For years, the residents of this small town surrounded by dairy farms have tried to get along with their Amish neighbors, who commute in horse-drawn buggies to banks and stores in town.
But horse droppings keep getting in the way. They often land at Inga Larsen's driveway, making an adventure out of walking to the mailbox for Ms. Larsen, who is 92 and uses a cane.
The Methodist church, on a busy corner, is particularly unlucky. When the buggies pull up to a stop sign there, horses often relieve themselves. JoAnn Oestreich, who lives next to the church, said she stopped opening her windows because the stench and flies were unbearable.
"With all the other things we have to do in life, you just get sick and tired of cleaning up the horse manure," Gladys Zuehlke, Ms. Larsen's daughter, said.
There is the health concern. "Maybe horse manure does not carry illness, but flies do," Ms. Zuehlke said.
Three years ago, people in this town of 1,300 thought that they had settled the dispute with a gentlemen's agreement in which the Amish promised to stay off certain well-traveled roads and to clean up regularly at a handful of hitching posts.
In return, the town dropped a proposal to force the Amish to put manure-catching "diapers" on the bottoms of the buggies and to clean up all droppings or be fined. The Amish, offended by the tone of the debate, withdrew some of their savings from Loyal banks and boycotted city businesses for about a year.
Now the dispute has returned, and in a meeting on Thursday residents related their grievances for nearly two hours and debated a suggestion to limit the Amish to truck routes around the town. Residents said that the Amish had not been keeping the hitching posts clean and that the manure continued to cause trouble. Several business owners and the mayor expressed concern that irritating the Amish could cause a new boycott. The City Council plans to discuss the problem again on Tuesday.
Although some residents fret that the bickering is as embarrassing as, well, the manure itself, the debate displays fissures in the seemingly cordial relations between the Amish and "the English," what the Amish call non-Amish. The Amish are a Christian sect that favors plain dress and plain living, with little or no reliance on modern conveniences like electricity, cars or telephones. In Wisconsin, with the fourth-largest Amish population after Pennsylvania, Ohio and Indiana, their numbers are growing, exceeding 10,400 in 2002, said Ingolf Vogeler, a geography professor at the University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire, 50 miles west of Loyal.
Around Loyal, the Amish population has grown to 85 families, or more than 500 people, since the first two families arrived in 1989 from Ohio. The Amish have been loath to defend themselves. Two representatives declined to speak Thursday, watching silently.
Emanuel Miller, head of one of the two original families, said in an interview that safety concerns prevented the Amish from cleaning up more manure, though he acknowledged that they could do a better job at the hitching posts. He said it was dangerous to stop carriages every time the horses relieved themselves.
This month, cars chased down a horse that ran off with an empty buggy just after an Amish woman had untied it. Amish in nearby Augusta found that manure-catchers, which that city imposed about 10 years ago, spooked some young horses, Mr. Miller said. He added that that he would like to think the manure debate was an isolated problem.
"Over all, I would say we have come to a real good community here," he said Friday. "There are a few oddballs, but the vast majority are very nice people around here. I don't detect any prejudice as a whole."
Still, at breakfast at Grandma's Kitchen last week, a group of older women spoke about a host of concerns. They recounted that at a funeral three years ago at the Methodist church, the American Legion drill team halted before firing a salute so it could step away from a manure pile. The women also said motorists had a hard time seeing the buggies at night because the Amish had refused to put bright orange slow-moving-vehicle signs on their buggies, as some Amish in other places have.
Courts in Michigan, Minnesota and Wisconsin have upheld the right, based on freedom of religious expression, to use white reflective tape rather than the usual orange triangle, which some Amish consider a symbol of the non-Amish world.
Ms. Zuehlke, a nurse, said workers at her hospital could "never understand" young Amish children, who grow up speaking German. But she said her mother had, at least, used some of the manure to fertilize her backyard flower garden.
"The English community has a number of things they are upset about," said Harvey M. Jacobs, a professor in the urban and regional planning department at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, who has studied the Wisconsin Amish.
"The non-Amish community is feeling a sense of alienation, a confusion and anger," Professor Jacobs said, adding that its attitude was one of "these people live amongst us and yet don't live with us."
"The horse issue is a way that can express itself," he said.
Residents also fault the city for not cleaning the streets better.
[Mayor Randy Anderson said on Monday that the question boiled down to economics. City crews clean with a sweeper a few times a week, Mr. Anderson said."How many times do you send a city crew out there to clean up?" ]
Some business owners are clearly concerned about how the Amish will react if pushed. Tom Zettler, who owns the town's hardware store, said he relied on the Amish for a quarter of his business and watched Amish business drop to "almost nothing" in the 2002 debate.
"I don't believe this is just about horse manure," Mr. Zettler said. "The issue is these people are different than any of the people around here, and that's unfortunate."
If an ordinance restricts manure, Mr. Miller said, "we would avoid Loyal as much as we could."
As for health questions, Mr. Miller said: "This is so highly biodegradable. The good lord created the horse as a beast of burden, and he created it so it would not be so offensive an animal. The manure is much more unsightly than hazardous to health."
Published: October 18, 2005
LOYAL, Wis., Oct. 14 - For years, the residents of this small town surrounded by dairy farms have tried to get along with their Amish neighbors, who commute in horse-drawn buggies to banks and stores in town.
But horse droppings keep getting in the way. They often land at Inga Larsen's driveway, making an adventure out of walking to the mailbox for Ms. Larsen, who is 92 and uses a cane.
The Methodist church, on a busy corner, is particularly unlucky. When the buggies pull up to a stop sign there, horses often relieve themselves. JoAnn Oestreich, who lives next to the church, said she stopped opening her windows because the stench and flies were unbearable.
"With all the other things we have to do in life, you just get sick and tired of cleaning up the horse manure," Gladys Zuehlke, Ms. Larsen's daughter, said.
There is the health concern. "Maybe horse manure does not carry illness, but flies do," Ms. Zuehlke said.
Three years ago, people in this town of 1,300 thought that they had settled the dispute with a gentlemen's agreement in which the Amish promised to stay off certain well-traveled roads and to clean up regularly at a handful of hitching posts.
In return, the town dropped a proposal to force the Amish to put manure-catching "diapers" on the bottoms of the buggies and to clean up all droppings or be fined. The Amish, offended by the tone of the debate, withdrew some of their savings from Loyal banks and boycotted city businesses for about a year.
Now the dispute has returned, and in a meeting on Thursday residents related their grievances for nearly two hours and debated a suggestion to limit the Amish to truck routes around the town. Residents said that the Amish had not been keeping the hitching posts clean and that the manure continued to cause trouble. Several business owners and the mayor expressed concern that irritating the Amish could cause a new boycott. The City Council plans to discuss the problem again on Tuesday.
Although some residents fret that the bickering is as embarrassing as, well, the manure itself, the debate displays fissures in the seemingly cordial relations between the Amish and "the English," what the Amish call non-Amish. The Amish are a Christian sect that favors plain dress and plain living, with little or no reliance on modern conveniences like electricity, cars or telephones. In Wisconsin, with the fourth-largest Amish population after Pennsylvania, Ohio and Indiana, their numbers are growing, exceeding 10,400 in 2002, said Ingolf Vogeler, a geography professor at the University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire, 50 miles west of Loyal.
Around Loyal, the Amish population has grown to 85 families, or more than 500 people, since the first two families arrived in 1989 from Ohio. The Amish have been loath to defend themselves. Two representatives declined to speak Thursday, watching silently.
Emanuel Miller, head of one of the two original families, said in an interview that safety concerns prevented the Amish from cleaning up more manure, though he acknowledged that they could do a better job at the hitching posts. He said it was dangerous to stop carriages every time the horses relieved themselves.
This month, cars chased down a horse that ran off with an empty buggy just after an Amish woman had untied it. Amish in nearby Augusta found that manure-catchers, which that city imposed about 10 years ago, spooked some young horses, Mr. Miller said. He added that that he would like to think the manure debate was an isolated problem.
"Over all, I would say we have come to a real good community here," he said Friday. "There are a few oddballs, but the vast majority are very nice people around here. I don't detect any prejudice as a whole."
Still, at breakfast at Grandma's Kitchen last week, a group of older women spoke about a host of concerns. They recounted that at a funeral three years ago at the Methodist church, the American Legion drill team halted before firing a salute so it could step away from a manure pile. The women also said motorists had a hard time seeing the buggies at night because the Amish had refused to put bright orange slow-moving-vehicle signs on their buggies, as some Amish in other places have.
Courts in Michigan, Minnesota and Wisconsin have upheld the right, based on freedom of religious expression, to use white reflective tape rather than the usual orange triangle, which some Amish consider a symbol of the non-Amish world.
Ms. Zuehlke, a nurse, said workers at her hospital could "never understand" young Amish children, who grow up speaking German. But she said her mother had, at least, used some of the manure to fertilize her backyard flower garden.
"The English community has a number of things they are upset about," said Harvey M. Jacobs, a professor in the urban and regional planning department at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, who has studied the Wisconsin Amish.
"The non-Amish community is feeling a sense of alienation, a confusion and anger," Professor Jacobs said, adding that its attitude was one of "these people live amongst us and yet don't live with us."
"The horse issue is a way that can express itself," he said.
Residents also fault the city for not cleaning the streets better.
[Mayor Randy Anderson said on Monday that the question boiled down to economics. City crews clean with a sweeper a few times a week, Mr. Anderson said."How many times do you send a city crew out there to clean up?" ]
Some business owners are clearly concerned about how the Amish will react if pushed. Tom Zettler, who owns the town's hardware store, said he relied on the Amish for a quarter of his business and watched Amish business drop to "almost nothing" in the 2002 debate.
"I don't believe this is just about horse manure," Mr. Zettler said. "The issue is these people are different than any of the people around here, and that's unfortunate."
If an ordinance restricts manure, Mr. Miller said, "we would avoid Loyal as much as we could."
As for health questions, Mr. Miller said: "This is so highly biodegradable. The good lord created the horse as a beast of burden, and he created it so it would not be so offensive an animal. The manure is much more unsightly than hazardous to health."
Just goes to show in an ordinary town people will still get upset just cause "you're different"
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Re: The Amish
by holmes » Thu 20 Oct 2005, 13:35:08
I back the amish 100%. I wonder what the Americans kids are doing in the small town? Maybe the kids cans start cleaning up the horse dung, using it to fertilize organic crops for the town. Become self sufficient like the amish.
Oh no thats unamerican. They need some illegals and the kids can just keep smoking crack and start building the mega mart and oil grocery complex. Now thats america 100% unsustainable. they need to shut up and clean up. yank them punks off the gameboy, computer and tv. They should be thankful to have the amish near them. Americans used to use horses. are we that lost? YES! Go Amish!
Oh no thats unamerican. They need some illegals and the kids can just keep smoking crack and start building the mega mart and oil grocery complex. Now thats america 100% unsustainable. they need to shut up and clean up. yank them punks off the gameboy, computer and tv. They should be thankful to have the amish near them. Americans used to use horses. are we that lost? YES! Go Amish!
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Re: The Amish
by uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Thu 20 Oct 2005, 13:44:23
The problem is that the Amish don't have the right marketing guru behind them. If they can figure out a way to prettily package dangerous chemicals for people to eat and yes, a lot of us are stupid enough to actually eat it, they could probably come up with a marketing campaign for horse poop. (yes, I'm joking)
People are so superficial and expect everything to be pretty and perfect its pathetic. I agree taht they should have to use orange triangles, soemthing more they have to buy that they shouldn't.
but I wonder if they know just how many people used to die in carriage accidents even before there were idiots in cars on roads.
People are so superficial and expect everything to be pretty and perfect its pathetic. I agree taht they should have to use orange triangles, soemthing more they have to buy that they shouldn't.
but I wonder if they know just how many people used to die in carriage accidents even before there were idiots in cars on roads.
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Re: The Amish
by Pops » Thu 20 Oct 2005, 13:51:11
There is definetly an undercurrent of hostility around here toward the Amish – 'What, they think they’re better than us?', 'They’re hypocrites', 'They don't think they should pay taxes you know', etc.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: The Amish
by Daculling » Thu 20 Oct 2005, 13:54:00
The Amish aren't as they used to be... we are slowing eroding that lifestyle and value system as well. Over 50 tourists visit each year for every one acre of Amish land farmed...
This was on PBS a couple of nights ago.
The Amish and Us
And this one you can rent at netflix
Devil's Playground
This was on PBS a couple of nights ago.
The Amish and Us
And this one you can rent at netflix
Devil's Playground
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Re: The Amish
by SinisterBlueCat » Thu 20 Oct 2005, 14:02:33
I visit the farmers market weekly where I buy as much good, fresh food from the Amish as I can. The Amish are in general wonderful people that we could all learn from. I would hate to see them pushed out of existence like so many other diverse species. But they feel it is coming, expecially in light of the NAID.
As for the manure, I have two horses, and personally, I would rather roll in manure naked than swim in the WI river which is so polluted with gasoline, oil and garbage from "normal" folk and their stupid boats and wave runners any day of the week.
As for the manure, I have two horses, and personally, I would rather roll in manure naked than swim in the WI river which is so polluted with gasoline, oil and garbage from "normal" folk and their stupid boats and wave runners any day of the week.
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Re: The Amish
by uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Thu 20 Oct 2005, 14:12:11
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'e')xpecially in light of the NAID.
What is NAID?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s for the manure, I have two horses, and personally, I would rather roll in manure naked than swim in the WI river which is so polluted with gasoline, oil and garbage from "normal" folk and their stupid boats and wave runners any day of the week.
Wow that's saying a lot. and speaking of which, I want to over winter a couple bushes, can I put uncomposted horse manure on the ground around the ir base to do this or is it bad to do with uncomposted manure?
I would rather put up with the smell of horse manure than gas... now chicken manure...
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Re: The Amish
by killJOY » Thu 20 Oct 2005, 14:16:36
Whenever I visit my family in OH, I always stop in Kidron for a day. I love it there.
If the Amish didn't have such a cracked belief system, I'd be Amish.
If I weren't queer, that is.
If the Amish didn't have such a cracked belief system, I'd be Amish.
If I weren't queer, that is.
Peak oil = comet Kohoutek.
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Re: The Amish
by holmes » Thu 20 Oct 2005, 14:16:47
Normal americans are parasites. They consume their own inorder to profit and grow. Notice the normal americans who are making a profit off of the amish have no problem. If they are not making money off of u or stealing something u are always a target of their wants. this is americans: we consume land. That is what the american dream is all about. usurp and consume and profit.
The Amish Must Be Helped, Supported and Defended by all means neccessary.
AMBHSD!
The Amish Must Be Helped, Supported and Defended by all means neccessary.
AMBHSD!
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Re: The Amish
by SinisterBlueCat » Thu 20 Oct 2005, 14:20:05
NAID is the National Animal ID. The new USDA program that is going to make it mandatory that all livestock animals (chickens, horses, cow, pigeons, etc) be eletronically tagged for identification.
I usually would not recommend using fresh manure on bushes. But I am not sure about overwintering them with it. Is there any chance you can spread it out for awhile before it gets too cold to let it dry out?
I usually would not recommend using fresh manure on bushes. But I am not sure about overwintering them with it. Is there any chance you can spread it out for awhile before it gets too cold to let it dry out?
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Re: The Amish
by holmes » Thu 20 Oct 2005, 14:21:12
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', 'W')ow that's saying a lot. and speaking of which, I want to over winter a couple bushes, can I put uncomposted horse manure on the ground around the ir base to do this or is it bad to do with uncomposted manure?I would rather put up with the smell of horse manure than gas... now chicken manure...
No u must age the dung first. Green manure not good!
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