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Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

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Re: Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

Postby jdmartin » Tue 18 Oct 2005, 00:55:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'N')ever, but we came real close, and we can't give up on the idea.

When in history have there been socialist states like you describe? Plenty of times. How many actually worked? None!


Who was it that came real close, and please describe how, in your opinion, it worked so fantastically.
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Re: Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

Postby jaws » Tue 18 Oct 2005, 02:08:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', '
')Who was it that came real close, and please describe how, in your opinion, it worked so fantastically.

The period from the end of the Franco-Prussian war up to WWI. It was 50 years of peace, free trade and sound money. Once the Federal Reserve was created in the US the era was over. Central planning was in, freedom was out. They fueled the boom of the 1920's with inflation and were responsible for the great depression, which socialists blamed of course on freedom, not on the central planners. The whole world went socialist during that period and things didn't get better, they got worse until the orgy of violence of WWII.
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Re: Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

Postby pup55 » Tue 18 Oct 2005, 11:53:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t was 50 years of peace, free trade and sound money
.

Also, systematic slaughter of the indigenous people in north america, near-extinction of the dominant mammalian life form (bison) in the western half of the country, wealth concentration into the hands of the robber-barons (rockefeller, carnegie, morgan, gould, dupont, vanderbilt, hearst) exploitation of farmers by railroad monopolies, exploitation of children by sweatshops in the NEUS (no child labor laws), exploitation of immigrants by the meatpacking, coal mining, railroad and steel industries, widespread contamination of the food supply due to nonexistent food and drug laws. Massive, industrial scale pollution in all cities. Fifth largest city in the country (chicago) destroyed repeatedly by fire because of no building standards.

Launching a pre-emptive, imperial war against a weakened opponent (Spanish-American war) under mysterious circumstances. Running the native local population out of the California central valley, then reclaiming it for the white farmers. Intervening in a war in Europe (questionably legitimate) to protect the robber barons' economic interests.

Frequent lynchings, jim crow laws, segregation, restrictive voting laws, election fraud etc. etc. in about half of the populated country. Women ineligible to vote, considered "property" of their husbands.

Widespread public health issues: yellow fever, smallpox, influenza. No authority (federal or state) over public health. Starvation and malnutrition are frequent causes of death among children.

Establishment of the income tax. Frequent economic collapses/boom and bust cycles.

Of course this is also the time of the most creativity, innovation, industriousness, and social development in US history, but obviously at some cost. I'm thinking some parts of the period between 1870 and 1920 we do not need to repeat.
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Re: Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

Postby rogerhb » Tue 18 Oct 2005, 12:44:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pup55', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t was 50 years of peace, free trade and sound money
.

Also, systematic slaughter...
Launching a pre-emptive, imperial war....
Frequent lynchings....
Widespread public health issues...
Frequent economic collapses/boom and bust cycles.....


Don't forget the Zulu war, the Boer wars, the Boxer rebellion, General Gordon in Khartoum.

Ah, the good old days, makes you sad really.
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Re: Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

Postby jaws » Tue 18 Oct 2005, 12:47:05

Also I heard that people died in those days! The horror! :? We should have an economic system that stops people from dying!
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Re: Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

Postby rogerhb » Tue 18 Oct 2005, 12:54:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'A')lso I heard that people died in those days! The horror! :? We should have an economic system that stops people from dying!


Yeah, something wrong with our DNA I think. :-D

Nature's way of saying "We've had quite enough of that kind of behaviour from you!" :roll:
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Re: Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

Postby CARVER » Tue 18 Oct 2005, 15:42:20

Jaws (and others),

Have you read The Future of Money by Bernard Lietaer. He shows the problems of our current money system and proposes a solution. He points out the undesired behavior that some of the features of our money system create, such as how interest results in the phenomenom of short-term vision of the business world, and hoarding money. Our current currency design does not support our objectives. "Regulation is a signal that you have a design failure" William McDonough. Trying to design or implement an economic system on a flawed money system will not work (as history and present shows).

I recommend everybody to read his book.
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Re: Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

Postby rogerhb » Tue 18 Oct 2005, 16:18:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CARVER', 'J')aws (and others),

Have you read The Future of Money by Bernard Lietaer. He shows the problems of our current money system and proposes a solution.


I am in 100% agreement with jaws on the money issue (I think), a return to the gold standard. Whether we would get zero inflation in face of declining resources is debateable. I for one, don't understand the problem of deflation and prices going down.

Where I differ from jaws (as I understand) is I believe in a cooperative society where money and property rights are not more important than people. Note: that does not mean money and property rights have no place, but they are a tool to help order society, not a be-all and end-all.

Follow the yellow brick road....
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Re: Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

Postby ubercrap » Tue 18 Oct 2005, 17:12:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'A')lso I heard that people died in those days! The horror! :? We should have an economic system that stops people from dying!


We're moving towards that. Think- in the old days, when modern medicine didn't exist, if you were wealthy, you might suffere the exact same fate as the poorest slum dweller if you had the same disease or ailment. Now, one can almost buy life if they are wealthy enough. Transplants, expensive drugs, incredible care for premature babies, etc... We had a lot less people and a lot more resources back then. We can never go back to those days you consider "the glory days."
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Re: Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

Postby jdmartin » Wed 19 Oct 2005, 00:04:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', '
')Who was it that came real close, and please describe how, in your opinion, it worked so fantastically.

The period from the end of the Franco-Prussian war up to WWI. It was 50 years of peace, free trade and sound money. Once the Federal Reserve was created in the US the era was over. Central planning was in, freedom was out. They fueled the boom of the 1920's with inflation and were responsible for the great depression, which socialists blamed of course on freedom, not on the central planners. The whole world went socialist during that period and things didn't get better, they got worse until the orgy of violence of WWII.


First off, there was nothing "free" about this era. Just consider the following:

1. Huge land grants given to railroads, which then turned around and sold the land at spectacular prices, around planned terminals which would then be betrothen to the railroad for its goods. In a truly "free" trade market, this land, which belonged to the people, should have been sold to the highest bidder, not given away for nothing.

2. High tariffs existed to protect domestic industries from overseas competition.

3.The 1886 Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Supreme Court case, in which the Court essentially granted "personhood" status to corporations, despite no granting of such by the Constitution, any state, or any other precedent anywhere in the world.

These are just 3 examples, but I could go on and on.

Furthermore, trade was never "free" because indirect costs were externalized to the public rather than paid for by the entity. For example, I think it would be reasonable to suggest that everyone (the public) is an owner of a local river, short of all land everywhere around it being owned by a single person. Therefore, it would stand to reason that you, as a factory owner, have no right to cause me financial disadvantage by your use of something that is part mine. However, that is exactly what happened. In our minor example here, the factory dumped its pollutants directly into the river, causing the people around there to be forced to abandon it as a source of drinking water and absorb the cost of finding another source of water. What the factory has done has pushed its cost of dealing with the pollution it has created onto someone else. So don't tell me it's free trade.

All you're spouting is prototypical right-wing garbage. I agree with many conservative points of view, but find the "capitalism good, socialism evil" mantra ridiculous. Absolute free trade will never exist because there will always be companies, people and groups looking to push some of their costs of doing business onto someone else. Besides, every truly successful nation on the planet right at this moment has some form of modified socialism as its governmental makeup.
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Re: Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

Postby jaws » Wed 19 Oct 2005, 00:32:13

I didn't say it was perfect, I said it was the closest we ever came near true economic freedom. Even back then there were all sorts of politicians who didn't understand economics and didn't have a problem using their power to screw over the public interest. That never changes and will never change, especially not in a socialist system. That's why economic planning must never be in the hands of politicians.

And I never said socialism was evil. Socialism is just a theory and as such is only incorrect. People who promote socialism are evil, because they refuse to recognize the evils that have resulted from such policies wherever they have been implemented. Men like Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin did not emerge from a vacuum. They were an inevitable necessity to perpetuate an economic system that can only avoid chaos by brutal dictatorial power. If you promote socialism you are promoting chaos, your reward will be slavery.

Pointing out the minor colonial wars of the Belle-Epoque is moot when compared with the spectacular carnage of WWII, a war fought by socialists in the name of socialism.
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Re: Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

Postby Free » Wed 19 Oct 2005, 01:09:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', '
')Who was it that came real close, and please describe how, in your opinion, it worked so fantastically.

The period from the end of the Franco-Prussian war up to WWI. It was 50 years of peace, free trade and sound money. Once the Federal Reserve was created in the US the era was over. Central planning was in, freedom was out. They fueled the boom of the 1920's with inflation and were responsible for the great depression, which socialists blamed of course on freedom, not on the central planners. The whole world went socialist during that period and things didn't get better, they got worse until the orgy of violence of WWII.


There have always been bubbles and horrible crashes long before the Fed was created (maybe not in the US, but that was practically just born).

The real reason is not central planning or free market, but the nature of money, or more specific, the interest on money, and the interest on interest. This is inherently instable and leads ALWAYS to inflationary and deflationary vicious cycles. It's an exponential function, how can you create a stable economic structure on that?

If there was a golden age it was short period in the middle ages (when the cathedrals where built), where a money with "expiration date" and no interest existed.

Read more here, unfortunately only the first chapters of the book are translated, the second link is the whole book in german. Please read it and refute it.


http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~roehrigw/ ... m/english/

http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~roehrigw/ ... ldsyndrom/
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Re: Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

Postby jaws » Wed 19 Oct 2005, 02:19:45

The Middle Ages? Bwahaha. Some golden age that was, unless of course you're referring to having your gold pillaged by marauding barbarians.

Interest is a natural phenomenon of human nature. Fighting it is anti-productive.
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Re: Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

Postby rogerhb » Wed 19 Oct 2005, 02:20:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'I') didn't say it was perfect, I said it was the closest we ever came near true economic freedom.


I think Charles Dickens might have disagreed with that analysis. True freedom for the rich and freedom to starve for the poor.
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Re: Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

Postby jaws » Wed 19 Oct 2005, 02:27:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'I') think Charles Dickens might have disagreed with that analysis. True freedom for the rich and freedom to starve for the poor.
Good intentions aren't going to conjure up more food for the poor. Only robust economic organization can accomplish that, and thankfully this was achieved in the first-world a long time ago. Thanks to economic freedom and private property no one is in any danger of starvation in capitalist countries. Of course there are always some socialists willing to create a completely unnecessary famine in order to advance their agenda, like our good friend Robert Mugabe is in the process of accomplishing, or like the enlightened Communist party representatives of the people did in China and the Soviet Union.
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Re: Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

Postby Free » Wed 19 Oct 2005, 02:46:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'T')he Middle Ages? Bwahaha. Some golden age that was, unless of course you're referring to having your gold pillaged by marauding barbarians.

Interest is a natural phenomenon of human nature. Fighting it is anti-productive.


You are a very smart guy jaws, much smarter than me, but the smartest guys have one weak spot: they trust their judgement too quick, because they experience it too often that they are right with their judgements. That's a reason why so many smart people don't get peak oil by the way.

What do you know about the middle ages? The common word of the "dark ages"? Some movies about guys in funny pants? I didn't say middle ages, I said a short period in the middle ages.

Fighting is a natural phenomenon of human nature, so is murder, so is rape. What's the point? We are human because we can go beyond human nature.

Of course interest is very much connected with growth, and the desire to get something for nothing (as in social welfare). Of course this is "natural" in a way. But that doesn't mean we can't try to control it, to channel it. Yes competition is good, if it's fair. It's not fair if you get something for nothing.

Today we face the huge challenge of getting away from addiction to growth. Why not assess all the reasons that lead to it in the first place.
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Re: Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

Postby rogerhb » Wed 19 Oct 2005, 02:48:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'I') think Charles Dickens might have disagreed with that analysis.
Good intentions aren't going to conjure up more food for the poor.


Good intentions? I thought it was "Great Expectations".

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'O')nly robust economic organization can accomplish that, and thankfully this was achieved in the first-world a long time ago. Thanks to economic freedom and private property no one is in any danger of starvation in capitalist countries.


Again, many people forget to add the word "yet" when extrapolating from the immediate past. It won't be lack of money that causes starvation in the current first world if we don't get back within the carrying capacity of the planet.
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Re: Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

Postby CARVER » Wed 19 Oct 2005, 07:58:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'I')nterest is a natural phenomenon of human nature. Fighting it is anti-productive.


But why does it has to be positive interest? Let's see what positive interest creates today:

- Extreme concentration of wealth. If you have money it keeps growing. If you spend less than the interest you collect, then it grows forever without you having to do anything. Not that it will go on forever, because extreme wealth concentration is a common cause of collapse of civilizations.

- Short-term vision of the business world and Western society at large. Let's say we want to stop the rapid destruction of our biosphere and want a vision of long-term sustainability. Well too bad our money does't favour long-term vision, here is how: interest rates create a built-in tendancy to disregard the future. The higher the interest, the more that tendency prevails. Capital allocation decisions are generally made through the financial technique of 'Discounted Cash Flow'. Let's say our project requires a $1,000 investment today, and it will produce a net profit of $100 on the first day of each subsequent year for the next 15 years, like installing solar panels for example. (Let us assume there is no inflation during that period of time). Getting back $1,500 on a $1,000 investment seems a reasonable investment. However what if we have a positive interest rate of say 10% per year. You could deposit $91 in a bank today at a 10% risk free rate of return, and get $100 a year from now. Therefor the $100 a year from now is identical to $91 today. By the same reasoning the second year's $100 would only be worth $83 today, the third's $75, ... , the fifteenth's $24. If we project this forward to a century, the last $100 would really be worth less than 1 cent today. Suddenly this doesn't look like a reasonable investment anymore. The future appears less relevant.

What would happen if we used negative interest, a demurrage charge on money? Let's look at money as a kind of public service, like a bus ride. And that a small fee is charged for the time one hoards it. Suddenly the future becomes more valuable with time, exactly the opposite of what happens with our positive-interest-rate currencies.

John Maynard Keynes claimed that a demurrage charge on currency not only makes sense from a theoretical viewpoint, but is actually preferably to our normal currencies. (Chapter 27 of Keynes's pricipal work: General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money)

I took this from the book The Future of Money by Bernard Lietaer
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Re: Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

Postby Doly » Wed 19 Oct 2005, 11:39:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CARVER', '
')But why does it has to be positive interest?


Interest is a reflection of risk. Somebody borrows money, but there's some chance that they will default. To protect yourself against that, you charge an interest. That's the only way that lending money could be a business. Otherwise, there's no point in lending money and our current banking system would disappear. Goodbye capital for startup enterprises.
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Re: Delphi Debacle: workers must work for 1/3 pay!

Postby CARVER » Wed 19 Oct 2005, 12:02:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'I')nterest is a reflection of risk. Somebody borrows money, but there's some chance that they will default. To protect yourself against that, you charge an interest. That's the only way that lending money could be a business. Otherwise, there's no point in lending money and our current banking system would disappear. Goodbye capital for startup enterprises.


So when there is a negative interest rate, you would still hoard your money, keep it in a bank account and see it disappear slowly?

I would think, you would either spend/invest/lend it. But where do you spend it all on, maybe something that will pay something back. Maybe you can invest that capital in startup enterprises. That way you probably will see something of it back. So the enterprise still can get the capital needed to startup, not as a loan, but by issuing stock. The difference is that you are the one that carries the risk. If you still want to give a loan that is possible too, you give a $100 loan today and receive $100 next year. If you would have kept it in the bank account that $100 would have returned only $99 a year later (-1%). Why would this suddenly not work anymore?
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