[rkerver]

Import prices in September had biggest runup in 15 years, 10/13/2005, Leslie Wines, MarketWatch
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')color=darkblue]In recent sessions the market has been gripped by the negative sentiment typically seen in October. This year the downward bias is linked to worries about rising inflation, energy costs and interest rates, and uncertainty about the strength of the economy.[/color]

[MicroHydro]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UIUCstudent01', '(')Unless you, of course, meant socialist in regards to the rich...)

[fossilnut2]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'T')he US having to bare the burden of world policeman has unfairly penalized them as well.

[Pops]

It’s hard to believe that Karl Rove will let the Republican Propaganda Corporation of America* go down the tubes.

*Otherwise known as Clear Channel

[Cool Hand Linc]

This isn't good news for sure. Big companies turning belly up.

Just wait until the high energy costs hit this winter!

After we the people struggle to get through the winter.

The picture we will see next spring will be very interesting.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'I')t’s hard to believe that Karl Rove will let the Republican Propaganda Corporation of America* go down the tubes.

*Otherwise known as Clear Channel

[jimmydean]

88B is just the tip of the iceberg.

GM is 300B in debt and it still amazes me that Kerkorian keeps increasing his stake in it (now 9.9%): Kerkorian raises stake in GM

With the huge growing debt default risk I just wonder if we are in for a derivatives implosion as well since the value is dependant on credit worthiness of the holders.

At this point I don't know why or how the stock market is staying afloat.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'T')he North American economy has been trashed by 10 years of insane government intervention in the US and it is now coming apart. The Asian economy looks to be semi-autonomous now and it will probably go through the US crash with a simple recession. The European (continental) economy is waking up after a few years of underinvestment and deflationary growth, and the promise of political-economic reforms is attracting back investors (most of whom are fleeing the US).

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'T')he US is in trouble because the govt. picks and chooses where and how to intervene. They have regulated small businesses to the point of extinction, but relax or ignore laws that prohibit excessive mergers and acquisitions. The govt. has promoted and sponsored corporate crime, in kickback campaign finance schemes.

[Doly]

You have a point in that nobody really understands how economy works, and that's the main reason it all goes belly up from time to time. On the other hand, believing that leaving it alone will solve all the problems it's a bit too optimistic. The market has proved enough times that, left alone, it will get out of desirable parameters quite easily. Laisez faire economics was the mainstream thought in the 19th century, and it lead to both serious social problems and economic disasters like the Great Depression.

Ideally, we would rethink economy and try to make a much more stable system, that will stay in spec with little effort. I wouldn't be surprised if the current ideas about economic growth are the main factor under current instability. But I admit I don't know enough about this things to even start any kind of proposal.

[CARVER]

I'm currently reading The Future of Money by Bernard Lietaer. He proposes a change (or addition) in or money system. A change that can prevent unemployment. The problem today is not that there is not enough work, the work is there, but we haven't got the money to do it.

He shows the 'vicious circle of unemployment' in the existing framework (a six-step feedback loop):

1 Unemployment creates a feeling of economic exclusion;
2 Part of those touched express it through violence;
3 Most ordinary people react to violence with fear;
4 Community breaks down, society becomes unstable, political polarization increases;
5 Fewer investments take place, fewer things are bought;
6 The investment climate deteriorates. More unemployment is created.
And the whole process starts all over again from the beginning.

Political left and right both have their standard 'solutions' for this:

Political Left: Tax the rich (more) and give welfare to the unemployed/poor (or create government jobs, that are usually unsuccessful). Problem is that this does not lift people out of unemployment/poverty so you cannot keep this up for long when more and more people lose their jobs.

Political Right: Don't mess with unemployment, the free markets will take care of this rather messy problem. However to deal with dissatisfaction and crime, they tend to go with tougher laws on crime, or fight immigration ("jobs are gone because immigrants take them from you"). As a result a lot of prisons have to be build. Building prisons may be seen as the most expensive welfare system in history: paying $20,000 per person per year to keep someone in prison for ever is not exactly the most cost-effective solution of tackling the 'vicious circle of unemployment'. When more and more people get unemployed it is cheaper to lock up the rich in 'golden ghettos', or other gated communities. A self imposed prison system. The world outside these 'prisons' turns into a gang-infested urban jungle.

So both political left and right are going to tax you more and more to work out their 'solutions', and they don't solve the problem.

In his book he also shows a chart that shows the correlation between the number of unemployed and the number of voters that vote for 'National-Socialist' parties. Unemployment up -> votes for 'National-Socialist' parties up.

It is scary when you look at how things a progressing currently.

[MacG]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CARVER', 'I')'m currently reading The Future of Money by Bernard Lietaer

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'T')he US is in trouble because the govt. picks and chooses where and how to intervene. They have regulated small businesses to the point of extinction, but relax or ignore laws that prohibit excessive mergers and acquisitions. The govt. has promoted and sponsored corporate crime, in kickback campaign finance schemes.

[rkerver]

I know many outside of the US may not be feeling very positive about America these days. God knows, neither do I, since 2000 and the neoconservative takeover of the GOP and their trumping both Congress and the White House. To help encourage a different sentiment, there is underway what we call the progressive reform of the democratic party. I prefer the term cooperative democracy, rather than adding in the unnecessary baggage that comes with socialism. Progressivism harkens back to the days of Roosevelt and the great society that gave us Social Security, Medicare, great works projects, and the labor movement. Check out http://www.commondreams.org/ sometime. It helps me when I begin to feel too despairing over current events, that there is a political correction underway. And please don't loose faith in the basic goodness of the American people.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'Y')ou have a point in that nobody really understands how economy works, and that's the main reason it all goes belly up from time to time. On the other hand, believing that leaving it alone will solve all the problems it's a bit too optimistic. The market has proved enough times that, left alone, it will get out of desirable parameters quite easily. Laisez faire economics was the mainstream thought in the 19th century, and it lead to both serious social problems and economic disasters like the Great Depression.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rkerver', 'I') know many outside of the US may not be feeling very positive about America these days. God knows, neither do I, since 2000 and the neoconservative takeover of the GOP and their trumping both Congress and the White House. To help encourage a different sentiment, there is underway what we call the progressive reform of the democratic party. I prefer the term cooperative democracy, rather than adding in the unnecessary baggage that comes with socialism. Progressivism harkens back to the days of Roosevelt and the great society that gave us Social Security, Medicare, great works projects, and the labor movement. Check out http://www.commondreams.org/ sometime. It helps me when I begin to feel too despairing over current events, that there is a political correction underway. And please don't loose faith in the basic goodness of the American people.

[GoIllini]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')Americans will definitely adapt to democratic socialism, or a progressive form of something using a more cooperative model. They are, by and large, some of the open hearted and good people in the world, just very misinformed. Nothing is going to improve there until they have been exposed to reality, like what actually works, internationally. To hell with theories, give me some solid examples.

[rkerver]

threadbear:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')color=darkblue]They are, by and large, some of the open hearted and good people in the world, just very misinformed. [/color]

[fossilnut2]

"They are, by and large, some of the open hearted and good people in the world, just very misinformed."

I 'used' to defend Americans that way.
"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, etc."

Not any more. Not since the 'Freedom Fries' culture. The blatant misrepresentation in the UN about WMDs was done by the administration but the American people wanted to believe. They wanted to believe the world is black and white and good and evil and you're with us or against us. Modern USA certainly isn't 1930's Germany but the American public reminded me of the Germans salivating to find a bogeyman to justify marching off on a crusade for some type of misplaced idealism.

2005? Why are you in Iraq? not because of freedom and democracy or any other ideal but only because you can't figure out (as in Vietnam) how the hell to get out. You don't give a hoot about Iraqis but only about American image...the embarassment of leaving with your tail between your legs and going back to eating 'French fries'.

The lack of media is bogus. Reminds me of those German. 'I didn't know'. Baloney. You 'chose' not to know and be blind. The re-election of Bush in 2004 was a statement that Americans have priorities other than a moral and ethical leadership.

You can't hide anymore behind 'ah, shucks, we're really good at heart' anymore. Much of the world sees Americans as no more than the schoolyard bully who has fallen flat on his face in Iraq. We chuckle under our breath and wink at eachother. The question is whether or not the bully will learn once he stands up again. He learned after Vietnam, put the white hat back and regained respect. I don't think, however, after Iraqinam, the American people will 'get it'.

[rkerver]

fossilnut2, while I understand, I reject your platitudes about me and most of the people I know. First of all, I do not eat "french fries." Secondly, I was in DC protesting the Iraq war in February 2003, before the invasion. At that time, less than 25% of the American people were against it. Now, its more than 65%, because we fought the culture war here. You are very wrong about what's happened with the American media machine. If there was unbiased coverage during the lead up to the war, then that 25% opposition would have been 65% at the outset and the war would not have happened. Most of all I reject your cynicism.