[Triffin]

Found this extensive photo collection from
a Danish dentists' visit to Greenland ..

Capital is Nuuk, has about 13,000 residents
Might be an interesting summer destination for
you post PO yachties out there

http://mytrip.dk/esider/ebsider/image001.html

Triff ..

[Liamj]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nth', '
')Exactly!
International Law and complying with it, doesn't mean the actions are good.
That is my whole point from the very beginning.

[nth]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Liamj', 'I')f the US's case depends on precedents of 'S.Vietnam invited us, etc' then thats a case i'd love to see dragged thru the courts, just to air all the 'conspiracy theories' (unpleasant facts) about covert killings/bribings/votefixings in the countries listed. But i wouldn't ask anyone to waste their years on what'd have to be an ultimately futile effort.

[PenultimateManStanding]

Reading the book oowolf mentioned, Climate Crash by John D. Cox. Fascinating discoveries in recent years (early '90s mainly) about the past record of rapid climate change. The current period of warm, stable climate, The Holocene, of the past 11,640 years came on practically overnight. The last warm period is known as the Eemian was from 135,000 years ago to 110,000 years ago and was a bit warmer than this one. But there were many more rapid, temporary shifts of dramatic proportions then. The last 8000 years has been "strangely stable" by geological standards. It does appear that paleoclimatology can only say what has happened but the systems are too dynamical, non-linear and random to say what will happen in the future. One thing is clear: we are in one of two stable states of global climate - the warm one. The other is the cold one and most of the Earth's history going back for hundreds of thousands of years has been cold. Would it not be a grand irony if modern humanity has lived for thousands of years in blissful ignorance of how cold the world can get practically instantaneously only to develop the scientific ability to discover the truth about this kind of change right at precisely the same moment in time when it's about to happen again! The world is a strange place.

[holmes]

One word.. WOW! interesting to say the least.

[Eli]

So the best science of today, shows that we could be heading into the next Ice age within a decade or have more extreme warming and that these changes in climate have happened many times in the past even before man had any influence on the climate.


I think what we have seen in the past few months is that mankind is helpless when it comes to the environment we live in. Earth quakes, Hurricanes, tsunamis, floods, diseases, with all our science we are all still at the mercy of our environment.

[Raxozanne]

Yeah except that this time around there is a hell of a lot more of of us to be helpess in the face of it.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', 'S')o the best science of today, shows that we could be heading into the next Ice age within a decade or have more extreme warming

[Eli]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Penn. I was going to ask the question you answered for me.


That would be the Ironies of Ironies if just when everyone said it was going to keep getting hotter and hotter that we froze to death.

I for one am not impressed by the extent of science's knowledge of how the climate works because what mankind does not know for certain far out ways what he does know.

And it is not what you don't know that usually kills you,
it is what you don't that you don't know that gets you.

[PenultimateManStanding]

Very true Eli. Take these rapid changes for instance. There are things involved such as the dumping of fresh water in the North Atlantic changing the salinity and stopping the sinking in the North Atlantic that returns the water to the equator where it picks up heat again and returns it north to heat Europe. Nobody seems to really know if it is a cause or an effect. Though I'm not quite done with this book about it, it does seem that what has happened in paleoclimatology is that the events have been mapped out but the underlying physical processes remain unknown. Just the details of what has been going on are fascinating though. Seems there are times when huge armadas of icebergs leave the NA and dump particles of rocks onto the ocean floor. They have been cored up and reveal that the changes are global. So what happens in the changes of the Atlantic currents are merely a small part of the overall picture. There are parts of Antarctica that follow along with the Northen Hemisphere climate shifts and parts that work in an opposite pattern. Why? Nobody knows.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raxozanne', 'Y')eah except that this time around there is a hell of a lot more of of us to be helpess in the face of it.

[elroy]

Yet another thing to add to the list. Giant volcanoes, asteroid crash, peak oil, economic crash, super flu bug, I'm almost starting to wonder how it's possible we're still around.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('elroy', 'Y')et another thing to add to the list. Giant volcanoes, asteroid crash, peak oil, economic crash, super flu bug, I'm almost starting to wonder how it's possible we're still around.

[bobcousins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'W')ould it not be a grand irony if modern humanity has lived for thousands of years in blissful ignorance of how cold the world can get practically instantaneously only to develop the scientific ability to discover the truth about this kind of change right at precisely the same moment in time when it's about to happen again! The world is a strange place.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', '
')There are many random events that could cause global extinctions, they are possible but unpredictable (e.g. gamma ray bursts)

[frankthetank]

Pen~very funny...i'm currently on page 100 of that book...!

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', 'P')en~very funny...i'm currently on page 100 of that book...!

[frankthetank]

"Climate Crash"...by Cox. I've also read "2 mile time machine" by whats his name (about a year ago). I'm very interested in the past and how climate on earth has changed over time. Its crazy how much the temp up in Greenland has changed...I'm guessing @ lower latitudes it probably wasn't as extreme (but what do i know).

I believe it was around page 80 that the guy (i'll have to look) made the point that during the past 1/2 million years only a small percentage of that time was spent in the warmth, meaning a overwhelming part of that time was spent in the freezer.

I know people make references to all kinds of doomish scenarios, but just look @ the past 20 years and you'll find all kinds of "freak" things that have happened. Now think of the next 80 years (a human lifespan for many) and i don't think you or I can even closely predict what will happen--i doubt it'll be boring.

Hey Europe...your living on borrowed time! Keep an eye on the gulf stream

I really wish i had a time machine.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', ' ')
Hey Europe...your living on borrowed time! Keep an eye on the gulf stream

I really wish i had a time machine.

[Antimatter]

Heres a nice pic of the data from the Vostok core:



One showing only more recent time:



Link to large thread destroying version

The changes in temperature actually preceed the changes in GHG's (CO2 and CH4) by several hundred years, the GHGs are thought to be a feedback. The Milankovitch cycles (small variations in earths orbit) are thought to be primary responsible for the cycles and the mechanism and magnitude of the GHG feedbacks not very well known.

The data shows that interglacial --> glacial transitions are usually slow affairs so I'm not too worried about any sudden ice ages. Theres a good chance, IMO, that the extra CO2 we have added will hold off the next ice age for some time, the magnitude of the milankovitch forcings responible for the flips is very small. A good case could be made that we should leave lots of coal, oil shale etc in the ground incase we need to burn it later on if things start getting chilly. Or whip up some super powerfull GHGs Some CFC's are thousands of times more effective a GHG than CO2, it is probably possible to create powerful heat trapping gases that don't eat the ozone layer.