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Peak Oil - A Conspiracy Theory?

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Anti-Conspiracy and Open Highways

Unread postby Lukethedrifter » Tue 04 Oct 2005, 16:32:02

This thread is two completely unrelated topics.

1. I find it amusing that when I try to speak to people in my life about Peak Oil, they say that I'm reading too many conspiracy theories. However, all of the conspiracy theory sites I read, dispute peak oil. That's funny.

2. If all the cars would get off the damn road, I could ride my bike to work much easier. I don't ride it to work now but that's because it would be dangerous. There is only one highway to my work and it's not suitable for bike riding. But, if there were no cars it would be a pleasant ride.
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Re: Anti-Conspiracy and Open Highways

Unread postby Eli » Tue 04 Oct 2005, 16:57:01

Yeah that is a funny observation about the conspiracy theory sites not buying peak oil.

The other funny thing is that by the time the roads get clear enough for you to want to ride your bike to work you probably won't have a job to ride to. :cry:

Well I guess that isn't really that funny.
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Re: Anti-Conspiracy and Open Highways

Unread postby Jake_old » Tue 04 Oct 2005, 17:25:21

But you do have to laugh

I could easily bike to work, after a bit of practice, but for the same reason i can't.

Conspiracies are often real I think but they don't often work.

When people aware of this see Peak Oil, its too scary because there's no one in control.

Thats my take anyway.
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Re: Anti-Conspiracy and Open Highways

Unread postby Eli » Tue 04 Oct 2005, 17:38:16

RedJake, I got to agree with you about the conspiracies. And as far as PO goes it is far too big a problem to have been engineered by some global elite.

And the Elite that does exist now makes far more money when everyone is buying things then they do when people do not. The global elite also like stability as well, when the masses are suffering they can get riled up and tend to storm the elite's castles and put their heads on pikes if things get bad enough.
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Re: Anti-Conspiracy and Open Highways

Unread postby Jake_old » Tue 04 Oct 2005, 17:48:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he global elite also like stability as well, when the masses are suffering they can get riled up and tend to storm the elite's castles and put their heads on pikes if things get bad enough.


Yeah but not here in the UK, we don't do that I don't know why. Wahey the French, for once :roll:
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Re: Anti-Conspiracy and Open Highways

Unread postby 0mar » Tue 04 Oct 2005, 18:15:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', 'A')nd as far as PO goes it is far too big a problem to have been engineered by some global elite.


Nevermind the fact that PO has 30 years of empirical evidence supporting it!
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Re: Anti-Conspiracy and Open Highways

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Wed 05 Oct 2005, 23:35:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '2'). If all the cars would get off the damn road, I could ride my bike to work much easier. I don't ride it to work now but that's because it would be dangerous. There is only one highway to my work and it's not suitable for bike riding. But, if there were no cars it would be a pleasant ride.


AMEN

I'm looking forward to NOT needing a car to get around and being able to use a bike without getting killed.





On top of that, if I have my electric sports car finished by then, I'll be able to have a LOT of fun on an empty highway every so often with a 140+ mph capable machine, even if it may not be my main form of transportation...
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Anti-Conspiracy and Open Highways

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Wed 05 Oct 2005, 23:40:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', 'O')n top of that, if I have my electric sports car finished by then, I'll be able to have a LOT of fun on an empty highway every so often with a 140+ mph capable machine, even if it may not be my main form of transportation...


Good luck finding a highway that hasn't already been destroyed by 15+ years of NAFTA traffic barreling towards a Wal-Mart near you.
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Re: Anti-Conspiracy and Open Highways

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Wed 05 Oct 2005, 23:49:53

That's the only problem. But on the upside there are scattered 1 to 2 mile stretches of highway around here that could be used for unlawful purposes as described above. I've been over 130 in various cars I've driven with little problem. It's all a matter of doing it on the right stretches of road that aren't riddled with bumps and potholes. And also praying there are no cops.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Anti-Conspiracy and Open Highways

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Wed 05 Oct 2005, 23:52:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', 'A')nd also praying there are no cops.


If it is madmax, they'll be too busy to hand out speeding tickets anymore...
8)
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Re: Anti-Conspiracy and Open Highways

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Thu 06 Oct 2005, 00:04:42

If it's Mad Max, I'll likely have to hightail it to the booneys because my car(if finished by then) would be in VERY high demand. Imagine having a portable wind generator to charge it with over the period of 2-3 days so it can again drive another 100 miles or so per charge. If an all out doomer scenario, that would be some good travel distance, not to mention being able to make your own 'fuel' and escape very rapidly if things get hairy.

I certainly don't know any horses capable of galloping to 140 mph, do you?



Of course, this is all daydreaming at this point. I don't think our scenario will be out and out Mad Max, even if it may cause a collapse or civil conflict, but I at least recognize it as a possibility however small it may be.

What is maddening is that nearly 10 years ago we developed the technology to gradually eliminate about 40% of oil consumption in America. But since the oilies fought it tooth and nail with their smear campaigns, doing what they could to keep it from being accepted by the public and offered to those still willing to adopt it, we're a little more screwed than we would have been otherwise. The oilies, wanting a shortage to happen so prices could climb sky high and they could ride out the peak making big bucks, they fought this technology tooth and nail. As did the federal government, wanting to keep that tax money rolling in, and wanting to keep their campaign contributors(oil and auto companies) happy.

There is no way to rapidly have it replace our current car fleet, that is unrealistic, as it takes 8-15 years for the typical car to turn over. But could it have been done? Yes. We may yet still have time, if we're lucky.

Even more maddening is that we should have seriously re-built our mass transit system while we had the money, but the auto industry and all its government lobbying just couldn't live with that. They worked so hard to tear it down in the 1940s to make Americans car-dependent...
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Anti-Conspiracy and Open Highways

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Thu 06 Oct 2005, 00:09:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '
')Even more maddening is that we should have seriously re-built our mass transit system while we had the money, but the auto industry and all its government lobbying just couldn't live with that. They worked so hard to tear it down in the 1940s to make Americans car-dependent...


*sigh* I know, I know. Mass transit was never part of "the plan" to put us all in single-family detached houses out in the burbs, though. It's too efficient for its own good. Damn GM and big gubmint...
We're so screwed.
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Re: Anti-Conspiracy and Open Highways

Unread postby Wildwell » Thu 06 Oct 2005, 10:29:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RedJake', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he global elite also like stability as well, when the masses are suffering they can get riled up and tend to storm the elite's castles and put their heads on pikes if things get bad enough.


Yeah but not here in the UK, we don't do that I don't know why. Wahey the French, for once :roll:


Brits are quite servile on the whole, they do a lot of moaning but not a lot of real action until pushed that way. In other words not as reactive as the French. But the country has a long history of industrial turmoil, strikes, political unrest, and debate and so on.

The 'masses' are fine when they feel comfortable, but too many taxes (Think Corn Laws, Poll tax) or severe material disruption/perception on inequality then there's a backlash.

The global elite (if there is such a thing in the conspiracy theory sense) could not survive without the whole system working in harmony, which is why I find conspiracy theories garbage most of the time. Yes there are 'money' and political interests, but overall the system needs stability. This is why the ‘City’ in London backed the Labour party this time round rather than the Tory Party…You need a low strike/high consumer confidence/low social problem economy.
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Re: Anti-Conspiracy and Open Highways

Unread postby pup55 » Thu 06 Oct 2005, 14:33:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f all the cars would get off the damn road, I could ride my bike to work much easier


Which brings up an important question: do you have a "right to bike"? We all know, that driving is a "priveledge", which is to say, the state regulates it, requires license, insurance, and otherwise revokes your priveledge for various infractions such as DUI or driving 130 in a 55.

Not so for bikes.
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Re: Anti-Conspiracy and Open Highways

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Thu 06 Oct 2005, 20:24:01

Actually, owning and operating a motor vehicle is a RIGHT. Please read the following:

-------------------------------------

SPECIAL POLICE OFFICER BULLETIN
U.S. COURT DECISIONS CONFIRM "DRIVING A MOTOR VEHICLE" IS A
CITIZENS RIGHT AND NOT A GOVERNMENT GRANTED PRIVILEGE.

For many years Professionals within the criminal justice System have
acted upon the belief that traveling by motor vehicle upon the roadway
was a privilege that was gained by a citizen only after approval by their
respective state government in the form of the issuance of a permit or
license to that Particular individual. Legislators, police officers and
court officials are becoming aware that there are now court decisions
that prove the fallacy of the legal opinion that" driving is a privilege
and therefore requires government approval, i.e. a license". Some of
these cases are:

Case # 1 - "Even the legislature has no power to deny to a citizen the
right to travel upon the highway and transport his property in the
ordinary course of his business or pleasure, though this right may be
regulated in accordance with the public interest and convenience. - Chicago
Motor Coach v Chicago 169 NE 22 ("Regulated" here means traffic safety
enforcement, stop lights, signs, etc. NOT a privilege that requires permission
i.e.- licensing, mandatory insurance, vehicle registration, etc.)

Case # 2 - "The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways
and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by
automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at
will, but a common right which he has under the right to life, liberty,
and the pursuit of happiness."- Thompson v Smith 154 SE 579.

It could not be stated more conclusively that Citizens of the states
have a right to travel, without approval or restriction, (license,) and
that this right is protected under the U.S. Constitution. Here are other
court decisions that expound the same facts:

Case # 3 - "The right to travel is a part of the liberty of which the
citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the 5th
Amendment." - Kent v Dulles, 357 U.S. 116, 125.

Case # 4 - "Undoubtedly the right of locomotion, the right to remove
from one place to another according to inclination, is an attribute of
personal Liberty, and the right, ordinarily, of free transit from or
through the territory of any State is a right secured by the l4th Amendment
and by other provisions of the Constitution." - Schactman v Dulles, 96 App
D.C. 287, 293.

FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT

As hard as it is for those of us in Law enforcement to believe, there
is no room for speculation in these court decisions. The American
citizen does indeed have the inalienable right to use the roadways
unrestricted in any manner as long as they are not damaging or violating
property
or rights of another.

Government, in requiring the people to file for "drivers Licenses,
vehicle registrations, mandatory insurance, and demanding they stop for
vehicle inspections, DUI/DWI roadblocks etc. without question, are
"restricting", and therefore violating, the Peoples common law right to
travel.

Is this a new legal interpretation on this subject of the right to
travel? Apparently not. The American Citizens and Lawmen Association in
conjunction with The U.S. Federal Law Research Center are presently
involved in studies in several areas involving questions on constitutional
law. One of the many areas under review is the area of "Citizens right to
travel." In an interview a spokesmen stated: "Upon researching this
subject over many months, substantial case law has presented itself that
completely substantiates the position that the "right to travel
unrestricted upon the nations highways" is and has always been a fundamental
right of every Citizen."

This means that the "beliefs and opinions" our state legislators, the
courts, and those of as involved in the law enforcement profession have
acted upon for years have been in error. Researchers armed with actual
facts state that U.S. case law is overwhelming in determining that - to
restrict, in any fashion, the movement of the individual American in
the free exercise of their right to travel upon the roadways, (excluding
"commerce" which the state Legislatures are correct in regulating), is
a serious breach of those freedoms secured by the U.S. Constitution,
and most state Constitutions, i.e - it is Unlawful.

THE REVELATION THAT THE AMERICAN CITIZEN HAS ALWAYS HAD THE INALIENABLE
RIGHT TO TRAVEL RAISES PROFOUND QUESTIONS TO THOSE WHO ARE INVOLVED IN
MAKING AND ENFORCING STATE LAWS.

The first of such questions may very well be - If the States have been
enforcing laws that are unconstitutional on their face, it would seem
that there must be some way that a state can legally put restrictions,
such as - licensing requirements, mandatory insurance, vehicle
registration, vehicle inspections, D.W.I. roadblocks, to name
just a few, on a Citizens constitutionally protected right.
Is that not so?

For the answer to this question let us look, once again, to the U.S.
courts for a determination on this very issue.

The case of Hertado v. California, 110 U.S. 516. states very plainly:
"The State cannot diminish rights of the people."

"the assertion of federal rights, when plainly and reasonably made, is
not to be defeated under the name of local practice."- Davis v.
Wechsler, 263 U.S. 22, 24.

Would we not say that these judicial decisions are straight to the
point - that there is no lawful method for government to put restrictions
or Limitations on rights belonging to the people?

Other cases are even more straight forward:

"Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no
rule making or legislation which would abrogate them." - Miranda v.
Arizona, 384 U.S. 436, 491.

"The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted
into a crime.· - Miller v. U.S., 230 F 2d 486, 489.

"There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of this
exercise of Constitutional rights."- Sherar v. Cullen, 481 F. 945. (
There is no question that a citation/ticket issued by a police officer,
for no drivers license, no current vehicle registration, no vehicle insurance
etc. which carries a fine or jail time, is a penalty or sanction, and
is indeed "converting a Right into a crime".)

We could go on, quoting court decision after court decision, however,
In addition, the Constitution itself answers our question- "Can a
government legally put restrictions on the rights of the American people at
anytime, for any reason"? (Such as in this particular case - when the
government believes it to be for the safety and welfare of the people).

The answer is found in ARTICLE SIX of the U.S. Constitution:

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be
made in Pursuance thereof;.shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the
judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the
Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary not withstanding". (This
tells us that the U.S.Constitution is to be upheld over any state, county,
or city Laws that are in opposition to it.)

In the same Article it goes on to say just who it is within our
governments that is bound by this Supreme Law:

"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of
the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial
Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound
by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution;". - ART. 6 U.S.
CONST.

We know that Police officers, are a part of the Executive branch. We
are "Executive Officers".

Article 6 above, is called the SUPREMACY CLAUSE, and it clearly states
that, under every circumstance, the above listed officials in these
United States must hold this documents tenets supreme over any other laws,
regulations, or orders. Every U.S. Police officer knows that they have
sworn a oath to the people of our nation that we will not only protect
their lives and property, but, that we will uphold, and protect their
freedoms and rights under the Supreme laws of this nation, - the U. S.
Constitution.

In this regard then, we must agree that those within government that
restrict a Citizens rights, (such as restricting the peoples right to
travel,) are acting in violation of his or her oath of office and are
actually committing a crime against such Citizens. Here's an interesting
question. Is ignorance of these laws an excuse for such acts by
officials? If we are to follow the "letter of the law (as we are sworn to do),
this places officials that involve themselves in such unlawful acts in an
unfavorable legal situation. For it is a felony and federal crime to
violate, or deprive citizens of their constitutionally protected rights.

Our system of law dictates the fact that there are only two ways to
legally remove a right belonging to the people. These are - #1 - by
lawfully amending the constitution, or #2 - by a person knowingly waiving a
particular right.

Some of the confusion in our present system has arisen because many
millions of people have waived their right to travel "unrestricted" upon
the roadways of the states and opted into the jurisdiction of the state
for various reasons. Those who have knowingly given up these rights are
now legally regulated by state law, the proper courts, and "sworn,
constitutionally empowered officers-of-the-law," and must acquire proper
permits, registrations, insurance, etc.

There are basically two groups of people in this category:

#1 - Any citizen that involves themselves in "commerce," (business for
private gain), upon the highways of the state.

Here is what the courts have said about this:

"...For while a citizen has the right to travel upon the public
highways and to transport his property thereon, that right does not extend to
the use of the highways, either in whole or in part, as a place for
private gain. For the latter purpose no person has a vested right to use
the highways of the state, but is a privilege or license which the
legislature may grant or withhold at its discretion..." - State v Johnson,
243 P. 1073, 1078.

Other U.S. court cases that confirm and point out the difference
between the "right" of the citizen to travel and a government "privilege" are
- Barney v Board of Railroad Commissioners; State v City of Spokane,
186 P. 864.; Ex Parte Dickey (Dickey v Davis), 85 S.E. 781.; Teche Lines
v Danforth, 12 So.2d 784.

There are numerous other court decisions that spell out the
JURISDICTION issue in these two distinctly different activities. However,
because
of space restrictions we will leave it up to officers to research it
further for themselves. (See last page for additional references).

#2 - The second group of citizens that are legally under the
jurisdiction of the state is the individual citizen who has voluntarily and
knowingly waived their right to travel "unregulated and unrestricted" by
requesting placement under such jurisdiction through the acquisition of a
state - drivers license, vehicle registration, mandatory insurance,
etc. (In other words "by contract only".)

We should remember what makes this "legal," and not a violation of the
individual’s common law right to travel "unrestricted" is that they
knowingly volunteer, freely, by contract, to waive their right. If they
were forced, coerced or unknowingly placed under the States powers, the
courts have said it is a clear violation of their rights.

This in itself raises a very interesting question. What percentage of
the people in each state have filed, and received, licenses,
registrations, insurance etc. after erroneously being advised by their
government
that it was mandatory?

Many of our courts, attorneys and police officials are just becoming
informed about this important issue and the difference between
"Privileges vs. Rights". We can assume that the majority of those Americans
carrying state licenses, vehicle registrations etc., have no knowledge of
the rights they waived in obeying laws such as these that the U.S.
Constitution clearly states are unlawful, i.e. "laws of no effect". In other
words - "LAWS THAT ARE NOT LAWS AT ALL."

OUR SWORN DUTY

An area of serious consideration for every police officer, is to
understand that the most important law in our land he has taken an oath to
protect, defend, AND ENFORCE, is not state laws, nor city or county
ordinances, but, that law that supercede all other laws in our nation, - the
U.S. Constitution. If laws in a particular police officer's state, or
local community are in conflict with the SUPREME LAW of our nation,
there Is no question that the officer's duty is to "uphold the U.S.
Constitution."

What does this mean to the "patrol officer" who will be the only sworn
"Executive Officer" on the scene, when knowledgeable Citizens raise
serious objections over possession of insurance, drivers licenses and
other restrictions? It definitely means these officers will be faced with a
hard decision. (Most certainly if that decision affects state, city or
county revenues, such as the issuing of citations do.)

Example: If a state legislator, judge or a superior tells a police
officer to proceed and enforce a contradictory, (illegal), state law rather
than the Supreme Law of this country, what is that "sworn officer" to
do? Although we may not want to hear it, there is but one right answer,
- "the officer is duty bound to uphold his oath of office" and obey the
highest laws of the nation. THIS IS OUR SWORN DUTY AND IT'S THE LAW!

Such a strong honest stand taken by a police officer, upholding his or
her oath of office, takes moral strength of character. It will, without
question, "SEPARATE THE MEN FROM THE BOYS." Such honest and straight
forward decisions on behalf of a government official have often caused
pressure to be applied to force such officers to set aside, or compromise their
morals or convictions.

As a solace for those brave souls in uniform that will stand up for law
and justice, even when it's unpopular, or uncomfortable to do so...let
me say this. In any legal stand-off over a sworn official "violating"
or "upholding" their oath of office, those that would side with the
"violation" should inevitable lose.

Our Founding Fathers assured us, on many occasions, the following:
Defending our freedoms in the face of people that would for "expedients
sake," or behind the guise, "for the safety and welfare of the masses,"
ignore people’s rights, would forever demand sacrifice and vigilance from
those that desired to remain free. That sounds a little like - "Freedom
is not free!"

Every police officer should keep the following U.S. court ruling, that
was covered earlier, in mind before issuing citations in regard to
"mandatory licensing, registration and insurance" - verses - "the right of
the people to travel unencumbered":

"THE CLAlM AND EXERCISE OF A CONSTITUTIONAL RlGHT CANNOT BE CONVERTED
INTO A CRIME." - Miller v U.S., 230 F 2d 486. 489.

And as we have seen, "traveling freely," going about ones daily
activities, is the exercise of a most basic right.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Anti-Conspiracy and Open Highways

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Thu 06 Oct 2005, 21:34:34

What are the ramifications of this, Toe? Are all restrictions upon the physical conveyance of interstate commerce therefore deemed illegal? Surely if one has a right to use the road, they also have a right to use common bodies of water or even the atmosphere as a medium of conveyance, all without encumbrance of the government.

What I'm concerned with is if driving is indeed a right, then is the nation *entitled* to innumerous free roads to drive upon, in order to exercise that right? Maybe the American way of life really isn't that negotiable after all.

It goes hand-in-hand that mandatory liability insurance would be illegal, as well as any and all speed and safety restrictions. Also, there would be no minimum age limit arbitrarily set for that right, I suppose.

Interesting post, Toe. Thanks for it. 8)
"It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."

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Re: Anti-Conspiracy and Open Highways

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Fri 07 Oct 2005, 00:30:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat are the ramifications of this, Toe? Are all restrictions upon the physical conveyance of interstate commerce therefore deemed illegal?


According to the article, I'd take that as a 'no'.

The article does state:

Some of the confusion in our present system has arisen because many
millions of people have waived their right to travel "unrestricted" upon
the roadways of the states and opted into the jurisdiction of the state
for various reasons. Those who have knowingly given up these rights are
now legally regulated by state law, the proper courts, and "sworn,
constitutionally empowered officers-of-the-law," and must acquire proper
permits, registrations, insurance, etc.

There are basically two groups of people in this category:

#1 - Any citizen that involves themselves in "commerce," (business for
private gain), upon the highways of the state.

Here is what the courts have said about this:

"...For while a citizen has the right to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, that right does not extend to the use of the highways, either in whole or in part, as a place for private gain. For the latter purpose no person has a vested right to use the highways of the state, but is a privilege or license which the legislature may grant or withhold at its discretion..." - State v Johnson, 243 P. 1073, 1078.

Other U.S. court cases that confirm and point out the difference between the "right" of the citizen to travel and a government "privilege" are - Barney v Board of Railroad Commissioners; State v City of Spokane, 186 P. 864.; Ex Parte Dickey (Dickey v Davis), 85 S.E. 781.; Teche Lines v Danforth, 12 So.2d 784.


If that answers your question.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')urely if one has a right to use the road, they also have a right to use common bodies of water or even the atmosphere as a medium of conveyance, all without encumbrance of the government.


Under the condition that they aren't infringing upon the property rights of or causing harm to another individual person. For example, say one wants to burn coal in a powerplant, releasing all sorts of emissions such as SOx, CO, NOx, particulates, VOCs, HCs, ect. If that causes harm to others in the form of increased lung cancer, brain damage from mercury in drinking water, or property damage from acid rain and soot, that company should be fully liable. In this day and age, however, the corporations aren't acountable for the damages they cause as they should be.

As this pertains to automobiles, the article clearly states:

The American citizen does indeed have the inalienable right to use the roadways unrestricted in any manner as long as they are not damaging or violating property or rights of another.

In a way, this can be a contradiction in the article itself. It does state emissions tests and such are unlawful. But a fine line is drawn. Throught the article a difference is cited between individual people and private interests motivated by profit.

For example, it may be perfectly lawful within the constitution for the government to impose emission standards on an automobile manufacturer, BUT for them to impose them on an individual person by forcing them to take their car in for inspection and to pay a few or not be legally allowed to operate their vehicle would be unconstitutional.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat I'm concerned with is if driving is indeed a right, then is the nation *entitled* to innumerous free roads to drive upon, in order to exercise that right?


Free roads? Not necessarily. The right itself stems from the fact that the taxpayers PAID for the roads, and therefore should be free to use them as they see fit so long as they are not posing an unessessary risk to others or causing harm to them. But given that traffic accidents and such will occur, there are limits to this principle.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')aybe the American way of life really isn't that negotiable after all.


Sure it is. Would Americans have access to good mass transit, they'd use it!

In the 1920s, before the depression, automobile ownership per licensed driver hit a plateau of about 1 car for every 3 licensed drivers, and the average car was driven about 5,000 miles per year.

This stayed constant until the 1940s.

This is because most americans took public transit. They used trolleys and light rail, because they had access to it nearly everywhere, and it was much cheaper to use than a car and about as convenient anyway.

The auto industry, tire industry, and oil industry had other plans. The 40s came, people still used public transit, until these three industries bought up practically all the systems in the nation and subsequently dismantled them. They wanted to force automobile reliance upon the population. Sprawl already existed to an extent, as the trolleys used to connect the inner city to the suburbs since the late 1800s, but with an end to the trolleys, people needed cars to get around.

Car ownership today is about 1.2 cars for every licenced driver, and the average car is driven about 12,000 miles per year. Coincidence? No way in hell.

The 'American way of life' isn't necessarily dependent upon auto use as far as its living standard is concerned. By reducing auto use and increasing access and use of public transit, 'the American way of life' could evolve back to where it used to be, with greatly increased personal mobility and freedom from car ownership.

But just as much as operating and owning a car is a right, not a privelege, so to is it a right NOT to have to own a car and use it to get around. Cheap, convenient public transit and access to it without hinderence and monitoring/intrusion of individual people by big government is thereby ALSO a right.

It has everything to do with unhindered mobility. The right to own and operate a motor vehicle being emphasized is merely an illustration of this point. To those that cannot afford a car, or choose nopt to have one, to not have convenient, affordable, accessable public transit is ALSO a violation of that same right, the right to unhindered mobility.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t goes hand-in-hand that mandatory liability insurance would be illegal

So long as the only insurance available has the individual operson paying for some company's profit margins, yes. Since there is no zero profit, zero loss government funded insurance to compete with the private sector, then yes, it is a violation of this right, as you're forcing every owner and operator of a motor vehicle to line someone else's pocket.(Note: such a theoretical government insurance industry wouldn't need taxes to fund it, as what would be put in by the buyers is what would be put out, minus wages and other expenses of operation. There would be NO profits that would need to be paid for, and the amount the buyers put in would allow the industry to break even after expenses.)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'a')s well as any and all speed and safety restrictions.

Careful there. The article again states:

"Even the legislature has no power to deny to a citizen the
right to travel upon the highway and transport his property in the
ordinary course of his business or pleasure, though this right may be
regulated in accordance with the public interest and convenience. - Chicago
Motor Coach v Chicago 169 NE 22 ("Regulated" here means traffic safety
enforcement, stop lights, signs, etc. NOT a privilege that requires permission
i.e.- licensing, mandatory insurance, vehicle registration, etc.)


I suppose a line could be drawn, however. Roads are engineered for a certain speed, and for a municipal or state to impose a limit lower than what the road was engineered for could perhaps be construed as a violation of this right in an effort to milk revenue from motorists.

also, a road that is virtually empty of traffic with few curves in which a motorist would be posing no risk to him/herself if speeding? A limit in this situation could also be construed as illegal.

However, regulatory signs do exist for a reason, to prevent the rights and property of others from being placed at risk or harmed. So long as a motorist is posing no harm or threat to anyone(within reason), then the regulatory signs such as speed limits need not apply.

As to safety restrictions, it depends on WHO is being restricted. Government restricting the vehicles of individual people? Not allowed. Government forcing an incorporated manufacturer of automobiles to include seatbelts, crumple zones, ect.? Allowed.

The protections and rights outlined cklearly are in the domain of the individual person, and not the incorporated entity seeking profit.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')lso, there would be no minimum age limit arbitrarily set for that right, I suppose.

Indeed.

But a lot of good that does anyway. I've snuck cars out and driven them when I was 11 and 12 years of age and could operate the vehicle just fine. Such arbitrary age limits are quite worthless, as there are many adults who fare much worse behind the wheel than some children would. But the current law system makes it very unwise for children to attempt driving, that and the fact that they aren't given the ability to take responsibility for whatever vehicle they may drive through insurance and such or the ability to be in the workforce to pay any fines that may be imposed upon them for violating regulatory signs, among other things.

But the line is drawn in which not all children are capable of being responsible for themselves. Not all adults are either, so by that logic people over the age of 16 shouldn't be allowed to drive either. This does illustrate the absurdity of an arbitrary age restriction quite well.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Anti-Conspiracy and Open Highways

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Fri 07 Oct 2005, 01:58:02

Thanks for the clarifications, Toe.
I hope we do get back to a more sensible way of life, integrating mass transit back into American culture.
"It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."

George Carlin
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The Oil Conspiracy -Slate

Unread postby J-Rod » Thu 05 Oct 2006, 10:58:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')s the Bush administration manipulating oil prices to win elections?


Enjoy.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hese days, gas prices interest political consultants as much as they do truckers. Politicos believe there is a direct relationship between the price of a gallon of gas and the fortunes of Democrats at the polls. High gas prices during the fall campaign season? Hello Speaker Pelosi. Falling gas prices in the post-Labor Day period? Crank up the Karl Rove Political Genius Machine again. Before the Foley scandal broke, Matt Drudge was tracking the falling price of a gallon of gas in Iowa on his site.


http://www.slate.com/id/2150903
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Re: The Oil Conspiracy -Slate

Unread postby DantesPeak » Thu 05 Oct 2006, 11:19:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')fter having delayed the summer's deposits to the Strategic Petroleum Reserve until the fall, the Wall Street Journal Monday reported that, "The Energy Department will hold off purchases of oil for the government's emergency reserve through the upcoming winter."


The Department of Energy actually said this move was to reduce prices. Since when was it their job to reduce prices after they have already dropped by 20%? Apparently before major elections. Congress should investigate this - since they are in control of the SPR. The DOE is charged with implementing their orders; the DOE must report to Congress on why it is not refilling the SPR. So far, up until this week, Congress has always gone along with what the DOE suggested - but that could change.
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