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The best thing to do with $5000

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL
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Re: The best thing to do with $5000

Postby Blimp » Tue 27 Sep 2005, 14:15:05

Hey, im totally new here. Can anyone in the know suggest what will happen to my 10,000£ so student loan? I'm kinda suspicious as to why the govment put so many of us students in debt (to be paid off in 30 so years time) when they clearly know about PO. I don't want the debt to escalate beyond my means if everything collapses.
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Re: The best thing to do with $5000

Postby Monk » Tue 27 Sep 2005, 17:00:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', '
')Some people here might say saving the money is dumb because inflation will eat up it's value. That doesn't matter - as long as it provides you some kind of cushion, that is what it is there for. Keep it in something that is unlikely to go broke overnight (savings account, cd, money market) and you should be OK.


Why would he build a contingency savings when he can pay down his credit card debt? So he would have a savings investment making 2-3% per year and a credit card debt costing him 18% per year.

He should pay off his credit cards. If something happens to his job, he's got the credit cards as a "contingency" source of funds.
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Re: The best thing to do with $5000

Postby GoIllini » Tue 27 Sep 2005, 17:21:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Monk', 'W')hy would he build a contingency savings when he can pay down his credit card debt? So he would have a savings investment making 2-3% per year and a credit card debt costing him 18% per year.

He should pay off his credit cards. If something happens to his job, he's got the credit cards as a "contingency" source of funds.


Agreed. Suzy would want him to do it, too. It is an incredibly wonderful feeling to be out of debt- even if you don't have a job. And you'll always have the option of going back into debt, if necessary.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Hey, im totally new here. Can anyone in the know suggest what will happen to my 10,000£ so student loan? I'm kinda suspicious as to why the govment put so many of us students in debt (to be paid off in 30 so years time) when they clearly know about PO. I don't want the debt to escalate beyond my means if everything collapses.

IMHO, the British government has other motives besides hurting you with that debt, and they'll play relatively fair. They give you easy loans because college graduates have historically helped the economy (perhaps college graduates with practical educations will also be useful to have in the country when peak oil hits). The government might know about peak oil, but at least in the U.S., when they're pouring billions of dollars into roadways, their policy doesn't know it. The same thing's probably going on in the UK; I'd be more worried about variable rate debt than fixed student loans.
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Re: The best thing to do with $5000

Postby Heineken » Tue 27 Sep 2005, 23:20:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('falser', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'H')ey, a large percentage of us POers just happen to be doomers. We make no apologies and have plenty of facts.


But using that philosophy to say to someone with $5000 that "it doesn't matter what you do with it because we're all screwed" isn't very helpful. There is very useful things you can do with money right now, and paying off debt is a good thing whether or not brain eating zombies will destroy society in 50 years.


You give the financial shell game another 50 years, falser? Dream on!

I didn't say that it didn't matter what one does with the $5000. However, in a society in which nearly everyone has a huge amount of debt that will probably never be paid off and lives in a country that has a huge amount of debt that will DEFINITELY never be paid off, one might question whether donning a halo and using the money to pay off one's debt makes sense. My own belief is that in a collapsing society/economy all this debt is not only ultimately unpayable but ultimately uncollectible. Maybe one reason why so many have assumed so much debt and the savings rate is zero is that we all unconsciously know this. Individuals are playing the same doomed game that the government and thousands of corporations are playing---borrowing against a future that can never be repaid because the natural capital that underpins the Monopoly capital is being permanently bankrupted.
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Re: The best thing to do with $5000

Postby jdmartin » Wed 28 Sep 2005, 00:11:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Monk', '
')
Why would he build a contingency savings when he can pay down his credit card debt? So he would have a savings investment making 2-3% per year and a credit card debt costing him 18% per year.

He should pay off his credit cards. If something happens to his job, he's got the credit cards as a "contingency" source of funds.


Well, several reasons that have nothing to do with 2-3% vs. 18%:

1. Many credit cards will not let you use their card to make a payment on another card. So the idea of using the credit cards as a contingency source won't work for long. What happens when you need to make the payment on the card OR pay the electric bill?

2. As soon as you are late on a credit card payment, instead of 18% now you're up to 30%. Miss a payment or two and now you can't use the credit card at all because you're cut off. If you've got 5k set aside and need 10k, well you probably can get by making the minimum payment. If you have nothing set aside and need 10k you're probably not gonna make it.

3. If things got bad enough to the point that 5k was only enough money to cover food and the mortgage, you could say piss on everything else and go into bankruptcy. You can place that 5k towards your mortgage, or Vegas, or whatever.

4. He's not "building" a contingency in this case, since he's already got 5k set aside. So it is not as if he's neglecting credit card debt to put hordes of money aside. A reasonable plan is to do both to the best of your ability.

Depending solely on credit cards as your backup plan with no savings is a dumb idea. Not having any money set aside to deal with emergencies is one of the biggest reasons people get into debt and can never get out.

Now, if the guy had no mortgage, and 5k could pay off all debts, I would say go for it, and quickly save back enough money to cover living expenses. But since it doesn't sound like the guy's gonna walk scott-free after paying his 5k, it's not a good idea.

There are other variables that go into the picture that we never discussed - i.e., how fast can he save up living expenses again - 6 months or 6 years, for example - that could change it somewhat. No one who has debt should walk around with zero dollars saved for an emergency. I agree, being debt-free feels marvelous, but financial sense is a holistic picture, for which most people a job and it's steady income is a huge part of that picture.
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Re: The best thing to do with $5000

Postby Monk » Wed 28 Sep 2005, 01:51:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Monk', '
')
Why would he build a contingency savings when he can pay down his credit card debt? So he would have a savings investment making 2-3% per year and a credit card debt costing him 18% per year.

He should pay off his credit cards. If something happens to his job, he's got the credit cards as a "contingency" source of funds.


Well, several reasons that have nothing to do with 2-3% vs. 18%:


I think you need to think about this some more.

Firstly, to dismiss the 2% vs. 18% is crazy..... that is not a trivial issue.

Rather than address everything you said specifically... I'll just say that all you need is 2 or 3 credit cards. You can take cash withdrawals from card 2 and/or 3 to make the minimum payments on card 1 for quite some time (until you have a job again)
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Re: The best thing to do with $5000

Postby TT » Wed 28 Sep 2005, 04:39:12

I, too, would appreciate some financial advice.

What would members suggest is the best way to invest $250,000.00?

I own my home. It is on a 3/4 acre block in a very small rural town. I live on a peninsula about 500 metres from the ocean. There are about 300 houses in the town. We are surrounded by farm land and forests. I believe that in a post peak world we would probably be able to survive here.

I am currently selling an investment property as I am tired of the hassle of tenants and have found that nearly all my rental income has had to be reinvested in repairs, maintenance, insurance and rates on the property.

As soon as this property is sold I plan to install solar panels and water storage tanks. I am also purchasing a solid fuel cooker/heater. There are huge stands of trees close by.

After this I anticipate I will have appoximately $250,000 to invest and I'm unsure of where to invest this. I don't understand the share market and my bank will offer me 5.6% on term deposit.

We receive a fortnightly superannuation pay. My husband also receives a small age pension. He is 67 - I am 50. I will inherit the superannuation, so we do not need to receive an income from the $250,000.

I am frightened that inflation will erode my money and I do not know how secure the Australian economy is. You can probably tell that I'm not really very clever about money and I'm quite worried about it.

I would really appreciate any help anyone can offer.


Theresa
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Re: The best thing to do with $5000

Postby deconstructionist » Wed 28 Sep 2005, 09:38:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', '
')Since your original post did not state that you had any kind of significant living expense money saved up, I say you save the money. Since you've already stated you have debt and a mortgage....

we do have some savings. not a year's worth of living expenses, but it's a sizeable chunk currently earning 3.4% in an ING account. i never said i had a mortgage--we rent.

the money has been used to pay off a good chunk of our credit card debt. we have eliminated 2 cards completely, saving us the $150 per month we were putting towards them to allow us to contribue more to savings and further debt relief each month. we still have wifey's grad school loans to pay off... that should take us until 2027 or something rediculous like that.

thank you all very kindly for your suggestions and advice. i appreciate it greatly.
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Re: The best thing to do with $5000

Postby deconstructionist » Wed 28 Sep 2005, 09:53:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Monk', '
')Firstly, to dismiss the 2% vs. 18% is crazy..... that is not a trivial issue.

Rather than address everything you said specifically... I'll just say that all you need is 2 or 3 credit cards. You can take cash withdrawals from card 2 and/or 3 to make the minimum payments on card 1 for quite some time (until you have a job again)

in actuality, the savings interest rate for ING is currently 3.4%. the CD didn't seem to make sense cuz it was only 4.15% and couldn't be touched for 3 years without penalties. not a big enough difference in interest rates to make the lack of flexibility worthwhile.

My credit cards currently average at about 6%. I've been carrying debt for about 12 years and i've been able to take advantage of some great offers to transfer balances at permanently low rates, so i'm not taking that big of a hit on the interest rates.

living off of credit cards as a contingency plan is not something either I or my wife would feel comfortable with. we put most of the wedding money into a savings account, and we contribute about 4.5% of our net income into this savings account each month.

most importantly--we're transitioning as smoothly and quickly as we can to a life that is not dependant upon our car. we walk or bike almost everywhere we go. while we'll still have the energy cost issue to deal with (all of our electric comes from wind and small hydro (www.newwindenergy.com)), we won't be affected as much by gasoline prices. food is a different story, but i think the north shore of massachusetts will be able to support a good deal of its population with local fishing/farming + barter when it comes down to it. sorry, gone incredibly off topic, but without lifestyle change, being smart with money doesn't make a difference.
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Re: The best thing to do with $5000

Postby deconstructionist » Wed 28 Sep 2005, 10:00:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TT', 'I'), too, would appreciate some financial advice.

What would members suggest is the best way to invest $250,000.00?

I own my home. It is on a 3/4 acre block in a very small rural town. I live on a peninsula about 500 metres from the ocean. There are about 300 houses in the town. We are surrounded by farm land and forests. I believe that in a post peak world we would probably be able to survive here.

I am currently selling an investment property as I am tired of the hassle of tenants and have found that nearly all my rental income has had to be reinvested in repairs, maintenance, insurance and rates on the property.

As soon as this property is sold I plan to install solar panels and water storage tanks. I am also purchasing a solid fuel cooker/heater. There are huge stands of trees close by.

After this I anticipate I will have appoximately $250,000 to invest and I'm unsure of where to invest this. I don't understand the share market and my bank will offer me 5.6% on term deposit.

We receive a fortnightly superannuation pay. My husband also receives a small age pension. He is 67 - I am 50. I will inherit the superannuation, so we do not need to receive an income from the $250,000.

I am frightened that inflation will erode my money and I do not know how secure the Australian economy is. You can probably tell that I'm not really very clever about money and I'm quite worried about it.

I would really appreciate any help anyone can offer.


Theresa

i think diversity is important when you have a larger portfolio to invest. choose a few different types of investments (low-risk lower-yield, higher-risk higher yield, commodoties, tangeable things that will allow you to actually live and survive if/when TSHTF) and split up the money amongst a few different types of investment. my 2 cents--not backed up by experience or real world knowledge... :wink:
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Re: The best thing to do with $5000

Postby falser » Wed 28 Sep 2005, 11:01:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TT', 'I'), too, would appreciate some financial advice.

What would members suggest is the best way to invest $250,000.00?

I own my home. It is on a 3/4 acre block in a very small rural town. I live on a peninsula about 500 metres from the ocean. There are about 300 houses in the town. We are surrounded by farm land and forests. I believe that in a post peak world we would probably be able to survive here.


Most of us probably aren't qualified to give financial advice on that sum of money. Your situation is different from a lot of us younger folks because you're closer to retirement. One thing I'd like to point out - if you have children I would seriously be thinking of how to use that wealth to help make your family's lives more managable in the future by paying off their debt/mortgages, or buying farmland nearby (hire other nearby farmers to harvest it).
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Re: The best thing to do with $5000

Postby Revi » Wed 28 Sep 2005, 13:26:14

Any lot in a town could be turned into a vegetable garden. I'm looking for a small piece of land that is in town with water, etc to hold on to in case I need a garden. You're not going to find anything near the North Shore of Massachusetts for $5000, however.
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Re: The best thing to do with $5000

Postby allenu » Wed 28 Sep 2005, 15:33:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Monk', '
')I think you need to think about this some more.

Firstly, to dismiss the 2% vs. 18% is crazy..... that is not a trivial issue.

Rather than address everything you said specifically... I'll just say that all you need is 2 or 3 credit cards. You can take cash withdrawals from card 2 and/or 3 to make the minimum payments on card 1 for quite some time (until you have a job again)


Yes, and the credit card's use would be a temporary measure anyway, and that's only if you HAD to resort to it. I agree with you; it's not worth paying an 18% fee upfront to have emergency money in a scenario that may or may not happen. If you ended up down in the dumps, then you can resort to the CC and only at that point start paying the exhorbitant 18%. If anything, you're losing money by not taking care of the credit card debt.
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Re: The best thing to do with $5000

Postby qwanta » Wed 28 Sep 2005, 15:57:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TT', 'I') am frightened that inflation will erode my money and I do not know how secure the Australian economy is. You can probably tell that I'm not really very clever about money and I'm quite worried about it.

I would really appreciate any help anyone can offer.

Theresa


TT, I would recommend looking at the energy sector and at precious metals (gold/silver). I was in a somewhat similar position to yourself - sitting on some savings in my bank account and tired of seeing them inflate away year after year - so I started researching and reading on the web. The 2 guiding concepts that I brought to the table with me were:
1) peak oil (which you obviously are familiar with)
2) the precariousness of the global financial system (housing bubble, US trade deficit, etc...)

I found sites that cover these 2 angles from an investing point of view, and I spent some weeks reading the articles posted (most update daily) to get a feel for things. After doing this I felt a lot more comfortable that I wasn't just flying blind and was able to make some investment decisions I felt good about. What I would recommend is to spend some time browsing these sites:

www.financialsense.com (there is a radio show posted every Saturday which is absolutely essential in my opinion as it covers both the financial markets and peak oil - James Kunstler will be on this Saturday)

www.321energy.com

www.321gold.com

www.kitco.com

there are more, but I don't want to overwhelm you....If nothing else, listen to the "big picture" section of the financialsense radio show every week (usually hour 3) after a few weeks I'm sure you will have learnt a lot of the terminology and concepts.

My personal feel from following these sites, is that there is a natural gas crunch coming this winter in the US, peak oil could be very close, US refinery capacity is very tight, the housing bubble is almost at an end, the possibility of a world financial meltdown is very real. You can draw your own conclusions about where I've invested :).

I'm reluctant to mention any specific stocks, but in terms of energy mutual funds, the only one I found that mentioned peak oil was GAGEX:

http://www.gafunds.com/gagex.asp

and the manger writes a monthly 'energy brief' which is good reading even if you do not invest in the fund:

http://www.gafunds.com/energybrief/20050831/

good luck!
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Re: The best thing to do with $5000

Postby TT » Wed 28 Sep 2005, 19:41:39

Thank you for your replies. It is really very helpful. I know that lack of money is a problem for many - but having a little money with no knowledge of investment is also a problem.

I had planned to pay my daughter's mortgage should the SHTF. She has a 5 acre property and is currently growing Aboriginal Bush Tucker, as well as fattening a couple of cows. She has a mortgage of $100,000 remaining and I would pay that out the minute she has any trouble with it. I think it would also be helpful to ensure that she has some cash funds to purchase essentials should the SHTF.

In the meantime I will investigate where I can safely invest the funds. Actually my prime concern has been safeguarding the funds for my daughter. I am close to retirement and will most likely not live to see the worst effects of PO. My daughter will be alive for the worst of it. Her survival is of paramount importance to me. The problem is that she is not willing to accept the concept of Peak Oil. I have satisfied myself with the fact that she has a country property and is already fairly self sufficient. She has wood heating and a well with a wind driven pump.

Thank you Qwanta, I will definately be checking out the sites you suggested.
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Re: The best thing to do with $5000

Postby newdamage » Thu 29 Sep 2005, 00:39:18

TT,

I think helping your daughter with her outstanding debt would be an excellent way to spend your excess money after you sell your rental property, not to mention admirable.

Stephen Pollan, author of Die Broke, actually agrees with this course of action. He states that parents should spent any money now on their children rather than leaving it for an inheritance. By the time children are grown and get the inheritance they are usually financially stable. They could use it much more in the their 20's to pay off debt, buy a house, etc, etc.

Something to think about.
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Re: The best thing to do with $5000

Postby Dukat_Reloaded » Thu 29 Sep 2005, 01:37:12

I have been saying for along time if your worried about inflation, buy gold. When I posted on the board to everyone afew weeks ago with the title "THE GOLD TRAIN IS LEAVING THE STATION" (recommending everyone get as much as they can afford" I got afew replies saying gold isn't the standard show of wealth anymore, some other people aggreed with me. Well just aweek after I encouraged people to buy gold, it jumped up 10%. I think gold is still a good buy now, but it's pretty much almost left the station so try to get on board if you can.
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Re: The best thing to do with $5000

Postby falser » Thu 29 Sep 2005, 02:02:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TT', 'I') had planned to pay my daughter's mortgage should the SHTF. She has a 5 acre property and is currently growing Aboriginal Bush Tucker, as well as fattening a couple of cows. She has a mortgage of $100,000 remaining and I would pay that out the minute she has any trouble with it. I think it would also be helpful to ensure that she has some cash funds to purchase essentials should the SHTF.


I can't think of any investment that would be better than helping your own family. IMO the "S is H-ing TF" right now (just nobody realizes it yet), and it's best to be completely out of debt and able put to as much income toward savings, gold, appropriate investments, and energy conservation (home improvements) - not building wealth for a bank.
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Re: The best thing to do with $5000

Postby peaker_2005 » Thu 29 Sep 2005, 02:44:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TT', 'T')hank you for your replies. It is really very helpful. I know that lack of money is a problem for many - but having a little money with no knowledge of investment is also a problem.

I had planned to pay my daughter's mortgage should the SHTF. She has a 5 acre property and is currently growing Aboriginal Bush Tucker, as well as fattening a couple of cows. She has a mortgage of $100,000 remaining and I would pay that out the minute she has any trouble with it. I think it would also be helpful to ensure that she has some cash funds to purchase essentials should the SHTF.

In the meantime I will investigate where I can safely invest the funds. Actually my prime concern has been safeguarding the funds for my daughter. I am close to retirement and will most likely not live to see the worst effects of PO. My daughter will be alive for the worst of it. Her survival is of paramount importance to me. The problem is that she is not willing to accept the concept of Peak Oil. I have satisfied myself with the fact that she has a country property and is already fairly self sufficient. She has wood heating and a well with a wind driven pump.

Thank you Qwanta, I will definately be checking out the sites you suggested.


Quite frankly, paying off your daughter's mortgage actually sounds like one of the best investments you can make - particularly given that she's otherwise well-positioned.

If I was old enough to have a daughter and was in your position, it's what I'd do - not just for the fact it's your own daughter - it is a very good investment, given how well-prepared she seems to be.

Alas, I'm only 20, but am reasonably placed (I wouldn't say well placed because I'm in Sydney, but I do happen to live in an area where rail investment is set to happen in the immediate future - namely the Cronulla branch duplication - about time too... it's only 30 years late!). I also have no debts, so am fortunate there (well, ok, I have probably a $20 overdraft, but I haven't bothered fixing that because it'd take me only a week to take care of that...

falser: I would agree with you: the S is beginning to HTF. I just wish I was better placed.
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Re: The best thing to do with $5000

Postby jdmartin » Thu 29 Sep 2005, 22:37:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Monk', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Monk', '
')
Why would he build a contingency savings when he can pay down his credit card debt? So he would have a savings investment making 2-3% per year and a credit card debt costing him 18% per year.

He should pay off his credit cards. If something happens to his job, he's got the credit cards as a "contingency" source of funds.


Well, several reasons that have nothing to do with 2-3% vs. 18%:


I think you need to think about this some more.

Firstly, to dismiss the 2% vs. 18% is crazy..... that is not a trivial issue.

Rather than address everything you said specifically... I'll just say that all you need is 2 or 3 credit cards. You can take cash withdrawals from card 2 and/or 3 to make the minimum payments on card 1 for quite some time (until you have a job again)


I will also avoid getting into a long drawn-out battle here. If you feel comfortable with no savings and credit cards for "just in case", more power to you. I disagree with this philosophy, but to each their own.

I will also add two other things - first, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a financial anybody (bank, advisor, non-profit, etc) that would advise to do what you're suggesting. Second, the old saying "Pay yourself first" has many years of wisdom behind it, and it wasn't invented by me.

Here's what someone else has to say on the issue:

Dr. Don
After fueling up their cars, Twyman says they bowed their heads and asked God for cheaper gas.There was no immediate answer, but he says other motorists joined in and the service station owner didn't run them off.
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