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THE Economists and Oil Thread (merged)

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Oil: Geologists vs. Economists

Unread postby shakespear1 » Fri 16 Sep 2005, 16:39:03

Here is an excellent article for Economists and others to get a better understanding of the stupidity in the way things were done over the years.

One More Oil Boom

It explains well the roller coaster ride that the oil business was and is.

The part about stripper wells is very well explained and shows the great tragedy it was to allow this to happen. Hard to believe that people were not smart enough to know that those wells would some day still be of use.
8)
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Re: Oil: Geologists vs. Economists

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Fri 16 Sep 2005, 20:50:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ard to believe that people were not smart enough to know that those wells would some day still be of use.


A good point Shakespear but if you remember back then we were all thinking that oil prices were going to be tanked for a long time. 2004 is definitely going to be called the wake up year when everyone came to their senses.
Interestingly enough there are lots of wells around the world that are currently being abandoned at rates of 100's of barrels a day. Why you ask...simply because the host governments have specific terms applied across the board as far as contracts go. Works great when you are producing wells as several thousand barrels a day but not so good at the low rates. Certainly down the road when these countries are hurting for revenue they will change the terms so someone will come in and produce those previously shut-in wells...but as we all know there is no guaranty they will be able to get them going again.
What is that saying about not learning from history and being doomed to repeat it?
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Re: Oil: Geologists vs. Economists

Unread postby Lehyina » Sat 17 Sep 2005, 01:25:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shakespear1', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'g')ive me the facts mame, just the facts.


And even if you get this, we engineers know how well the "facts" can be adjusted to fit the givers needs. :-D


Too many political and corporate leaders think they know better than the facts especially when the facts are very 'inconvenient', in which case they sometimes don't even bother to 'adjust them' - they repudiate them instead. Why let facts get in the way when you have 'superior vision and judgement'?
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Re: Oil: Geologists vs. Economists

Unread postby Antimatter » Sat 17 Sep 2005, 02:54:51

It is worth noting there are geologists on the other side too...USGS of course, William Fisher is a well known geologist who estimates 3.8 trillion for URR...the two main authors of the CERA report both are geologists with experience in E&P, the IHS Energy geologists are fairly optimistic, and there are also economists on the pessimist side eg Andrew Mckillop.
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Free-market Economists: Please Explain Natural Gas Prices

Unread postby SolarDave » Tue 11 Oct 2005, 13:37:17

Quoted from the opening sentence in an article posted on MyWay:

"The natural gas industry said Tuesday there should be plenty of the fuel this winter, but costs are expected to average at least 50 percent higher than last winter nationwide."

How can that statement be interpreted in any way other than: "The forces of greed have arbitrarily decided to increase Natural Gas prices, in spite of sufficient supply."

Substiute "propane," "diesel," "electricity," "gasoline," "jet fuel," in the same sentence, and surprise, it is still roughly true.

The energy companies see millions of consumer wallets as a vast green field, with billions of little dollar bills waving gently in the wind. The harvesters have been started, and they are now running at full speed.

This is not "supply and demand." It's market manipulation and greed.
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Re: Free-market Economists: Please Explain Natural Gas Price

Unread postby Spideykid » Tue 11 Oct 2005, 13:46:16

What they have said is there will be enough NG because people were conserve due to the price increase..... not that there will be so much NG that the prices will be super low.
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Re: Free-market Economists: Please Explain Natural Gas Price

Unread postby Eli » Tue 11 Oct 2005, 13:50:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SolarDave', 'Q')uoted from the opening sentence in an article posted on MyWay:

"The natural gas industry said Tuesday there should be plenty of the fuel this winter, but costs are expected to average at least 50 percent higher than last winter nationwide."



This is the key statement. There should be plenty of Natural Gas that is not the same as there will be.

If it helps to believe that PO is some how all just a big scam then go with that.
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Re: Free-market Economists: Please Explain Natural Gas Price

Unread postby NeoPeasant » Tue 11 Oct 2005, 14:22:08

It's a free market economy and it's their fuel. They should be free to charge whatever they like. You are free to not buy any or substitute something else. If you have allowed yourself to become dependent on their product that's your problem.

Substitute "crack" for "fuel" and the argument is still the same.
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Re: Free-market Economists: Please Explain Natural Gas Price

Unread postby bobcousins » Tue 11 Oct 2005, 14:42:26

It's difficult to see the invisible hand. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it is not working. Have you ever bid on ebay? There you see supply and demand working. If a desirable item appears, it often goes for more than it is worth. On the other hand, flood the market with the same item and they go for a song. The price changes purely due to supply and demand. THis is a real phenomena. It's an emergent feature, because there is no single person setting the price. It is due to the actions of many people, which makes it hard to see why it happens.

In the presence of competition, prices don't just rise arbitrarily. Only if there is an illegal price setting cartel operating, can prices be "fixed" artificially high. So the conclusion must be a) demand had increased, b) supply has decreased or c) cost of production has increased (or a combination).

Price setting by gas companies is based on how much they have to sell. If they sell their stock in a month, what are they supposed to do for the rest of the year? They can't close the company and go on holiday. Companies price their stock so they don't run out, usually with a some left over. Its better to have a sale later than have an empty shop.

In this case, the amout of gas they are producing plus their stock is priced so they don't run out. That may increase their asking price. If the market buys at that price, then that sets the prices. Also if they ask too much, they may get undercut by competitors. If they find that no-one bids at their asking price, they are forced to lower it.

So you see all the forces are in play to set the price, the market "manipulates" itself, it doesn't require intervention. As for greed, that is otherwise known as the profit motive, and what drives people to produce NG in the first place, so you can't complain about that.

As for journalists writing articles...99% of the time they write nonsense.

One thing baffles me though. The US is home and champion of the free market. Why is it then that people there so often complain about the normal working of the free market? Are they socialists in denial?
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Re: Free-market Economists: Please Explain Natural Gas Price

Unread postby ubercrap » Tue 11 Oct 2005, 15:44:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', '
')
Are they socialists in denial?


Now you're getting it! I have some socialist leanings, and have taken a lot of flak for it, especially recently. However, methinks things will change... :roll:
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Re: Free-market Economists: Please Explain Natural Gas Price

Unread postby ubercynicmeister » Tue 11 Oct 2005, 23:16:26

The "freemarket" doesn't work, FULL STOP.

In theory, when the availability of something goes UP, the price (supposedly) goes down.

When the availablity of something goes DOWN, the price (supposedly) goes up.

Or at least it should, but witness the recent drop in the price of Oil, when the supply went DOWN, while the demand remained about the same.

This above account doesn't take into account the dumping practices of various companies (and governments) around the world, but that's not actually part of the "freemarket" in theory...in practice it very MUCH is part of the Freemarket.

Now, in the Freemarket, any given company would be able to get as much money as it can (ie: sell it's products or services for as high a price as it can) and increasing it's profit-margin(s) by cutting costs.

One of the ways a company can cut costs is simply by making fewer of of their product, especially if that "product" is so vital (especially if there are no ready-to-hand replacements) that the average consumer has no choice about using their product. That is, one has to buy it no matter what the price. Water, for example, is one of those substances that a human MUST have.

One of the other products which fits this description of "utterly vital and without ready-to-hand replacement" is, of course, Oil.

Oil companies themselves face this very thing from the Oil Tanker owners, who have allowed the number of Oil Tankers to decline to the point where we're looking at 100% utilisation of said Oil tankers, thus driving the price of Oil up by somewhere between $10 to $25 per barrel. If you're an Oil Tanker Owner, this price-hike is a good thing and because the Oil MUST be transported by Tanker, because there is no "ready to hand" replacement, this means that the "shortage" of tankers is actually rewarded by higher prices, thus higher profits.

Why go and build more Oil tankers, then, when the Freemarket is rewarding you for NOT building tankers?

Now, if some dope steps up and tries to "muscle in"; to set up as a rival to you, it's pretty easy, under the Freemarket, to deal with such. If this happens, then you (because you're an existing player) can order ships be built from the few shipyards that actually can handle the Very Large Crude Carriers, and thus make sure the new-comers don't get anywhere. But one can order them at such a rate as to tie up the shipyards, without doing anything other than replacing the existing tankers that are too old.

Thus one can truthfully say that "we're adding new tankers" without actually INCREASING the overall number of tankers, thus keeping the shortage going for as long as one can.

And supposing that if someone still wants to "muscle in" to supply cargo space on Oil tankers, then they're gonna have to start by building their own Oil Tanker Construction Yards (the old shipyards were all 'downsized', a word most people in the West are gonna hear an AWFUL lot more of soon). So that means that the new-comers have to undertake addititional expediture either of building their own ship-yards or of waiting until there is a "free spot" in the construction schedule of the existing shipyards.

Even better - given the indecent haste with which the steel-smelters which supplied the ship-yards with raw material (steel) to build the ships have also been downsized-into-non-existance, then any newcomer who wants to step into the Oil Tanker business by building their own Oil Tankers must also build a new steel works to supply their new shipyard, OR "take their chances" waiting at the end of the queue of those who are asking for steel from (you guessed it) China.

This means that either the new-comer must undertake massive expense, with little-to-no guarentee of a return once they DO finally have a product they can sell, or else they just "have to put up with it" (ie: high Oil prices).

This is the Freemarket of "supply and demand"...where the "supply" can only be materially increased by massive amounts of money (shortly to be in short supply itself), then the hard cash to do this get hard to come by. Investors don't tend to like investing (as we have seen) in Long Term stuff anymore. They want the quick returns that will bring results by the "end of next quarter". This makes the oft derided "short term thinking" of politicians (only thinking to the end of their terms in office) seem like the meditations of Buddha in comparison.

But wait, there's less - in the Freemarket, as the price of everything rises, the money supply becomes tighter - thus the Freemarket has this self-reinforcing feed-back loop that is set on HIGH GAIN, so that each time the price goes up, it sucks more money outta the economy, thus making money supply tighter, thus the chance of investment (ie: cold hard cash) being divvied up to allow for the investment in means to lower the price itself beciomes less and less likely in a sort of death-spiral. I'm not necessarily talking about Oil, here - this is the price of anything traded on the freemarket.

Thus the freemarket always runs to excess - isn't the price of anything is always stated to be either "underpriced" or "overpriced"?

"Self-correction" seems to only occur in the Freemarket by catastrophe: "The bull comes in the front door - the bear leaps out of the window", as is the saying, meaning the Freemarket, as it runs upwards (a "bullish" or "bull" market, refering to the sheer amount of "bull" (propaganda, as in the Dot Con era) that is used to support the price-run), is welcomed and enters smoothly via the agreed-upon entrance, and probably causes vast damage once inside. Then, when things get nasty, the "bull turns bear" : investors get mauled and then eaten.

And that exit from the window is no mere metaphor: "It's raining stockbrokers" is the usual phrase to describe a day of "heavy selling" on that most well-known of Freemarkets: the stock-market.

Take the Dot Con era - everyone was (freely) investing in the Freemarket's greatest boom, as it was called, the Boom That Could Never End. Companies weren't necessarily traded on the stock-market, though that attracted the greatest interest (pardon the pun). If it had "e" in front of it (e-Commerce, e-Banking, e-Trading) then one just HAD to be part of this, because everyone else was, too.

This Dot Con Boom sucked the money out of every other bit of the economy, causing investment into real stuff that actually (gasp) could turn a profit (the "old" economy) to languish, at the very time when it might have done more good (such as research into, say, Nuclear Fusion) to prevent the coming Oil-induced economic catastrophe.

Thus the freemarket's "greatest experiment" (the Dot Con Boom) has showed the Freemarket to be what it acually is: incapable of seeing through the "hype" and "hucksterism" (to use some now very old words) to get to the real substance, and above all, it proves the Freemarket's UTTER inability to provide (voluntarily) corrective action to prevent the Dot-Con style of "bubbles".

The Freemarket, driven as it is by the Clueless Yuppies, has no idea. No idea of how to stop itself from "over correction", from "over investing" from "over subscribing" from "UNDER investing", and from "under investigation" intoi whether that company one is stuffing money into can every (really) turn a profit. The Freemarket contains no mechanism, no philosophy, no concept of how to stop these massive "runs" which always end in tragedy.

No, the Freemarket is in permanent self-destruct mode and when it goes, all I can say is: Good Riddance To Bad Rubbish.
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Re: Free-market Economists: Please Explain Natural Gas Price

Unread postby cheRand » Wed 12 Oct 2005, 01:05:03

Oklahoma has just one deep well driller, I think. They have about 14 or so deep wells. I don't think there are many deep well drillers in the US- something like 500 or so.

So while short-term supply may be looser, ultimate supply (reserves) are finite, and this functions like "limited supply", I'm guessing, because they are pacing their production. The "learned" from market pricing that they can hold back and get a better price.

Oklahoma just passed a $16 m severance tax credit for its one deep driller. I think I calculated that the entire US could run about 4 days on its potential production. There is enoughinfo to calculate National supply in the report that was used to back up the Chesapeake Tax Credit in Oklahoma.
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Re: Free-market Economists: Please Explain Natural Gas Price

Unread postby fossilnut2 » Wed 12 Oct 2005, 01:07:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', '
')
One thing baffles me though. The US is home and champion of the free market. Why is it then that people there so often complain about the normal working of the free market? Are they socialists in denial?


True: Also non-Americans get a chuckle when Americans complain about foreign control of the economy, etc. The Yanks are the ones who used gun-boast diplomacy to force open markets and promoted their companies around the world....everywhere from El Salvador to Chile, etc. And today? ever heard of Walmart? Microsoft? Mcdonalds?

Back to the topic. Want NG prices to decline? Use less energy. Drive less, turn off a light and turn down the temp on the hot water heater. Be happy when prices at the pump go up 'cause it promotes conservation.
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Re: Free-market Economists: Please Explain Natural Gas Price

Unread postby Revi » Wed 12 Oct 2005, 10:04:30

Do you think the free market will help us deal with peak oil? Will the run up in energy prices encourage conservation? Or will we even move into alternatives as a result of the price run up? Or are we too dumb as a herd?
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Re: Free-market Economists: Please Explain Natural Gas Price

Unread postby JoeW » Wed 12 Oct 2005, 10:30:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ubercynicmeister', 'T')he "freemarket" doesn't work, FULL STOP.

The problem with the free market is that it is only as smart as the Producers and Consumers operating within it.
In the US, especially, we are loaded with the most asinine, dumb-as-a-doorknob producers and consumers imaginable.

The other thing is that the theories of capitalism are just that--theories. They provide a model to be used as guidance in the real world, but reality always diverges from the model, especially when human affairs are involved.
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Re: Free-market Economists: Please Explain Natural Gas Price

Unread postby MacG » Wed 12 Oct 2005, 10:54:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', 'O')ne thing baffles me though. The US is home and champion of the free market. Why is it then that people there so often complain about the normal working of the free market? Are they socialists in denial?


Hahaha! Everyone is about to discover a basic fallacy of the "free market" thing:

1) It works best on "nice to have's" and not so well on "must have's"
2) It works best when there is plenty and not so well when there is a deficiency

The combination of "must have's" and "deficiency" is handled in a pretty inhumane way by "the market": Let the poor starve and freeze. Simple as that.
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Re: Free-market Economists: Please Explain Natural Gas Price

Unread postby Antimatter » Wed 12 Oct 2005, 11:25:54

If you think that thousands of NG producers and suppliers can act in cahoots to jack up the price i have a bridge to sell you. Capitalism usually works because its better to sell 10 units at $5 than cut back and sell 8 units at $10.50. Cartels, monopolies, and Enron are of course a different story. If the producers can jack up the price at will why was NG so damn cheap for the last couple of decades?
"Production of useful work is limited by the laws of thermodynamics, but the production of useless work seems to be unlimited."
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Re: Free-market Economists: Please Explain Natural Gas Price

Unread postby aahala » Wed 12 Oct 2005, 12:43:29

The NG market in the US could be described as "lumpy".

About two dozen producers provide about 50% of volume and
250 or so others providing the other half. Each of the fifty states
can have various rules as to pricing, marketing etc, and access
to the pipelines have additional rules.

My own NG company has a fixed monthly charge, a fixed per unit of
useage charge and the cost of the gas itself. I don't have a say in which
NG service company I can use--there is only one, no say in which producer
or price paid and almost no say in the fixed monthly fee or the per unit
fee--those last two costs are determined by the state utility agency.

Then some industrial users have greater freedom to choose than
homeowners which leds to a mixed bag of effects relative to how supply
and demand can affect price.
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Nathan Lewis: An economist goes doomerish

Unread postby Micki » Wed 10 Jan 2007, 18:56:05

It is not too often we hear about economists going doomerish. Now we can add Nathan Lewis to the list. And no wonder...he belives we are on the oil peak.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')athan Lewis was formerly the Chief International Economist of a firm that provides investment advice to institutional investors. Today, he is part of the investing team at an asset-management company. He has written for the Financial Times, Asian Wall Street Journal, Daily Yomiuri, Japan Times, Pravda, Dow Jones Newswires, and other publications. He has appeared on financial programs in the US, Asia, and the Middle


Check out his article "The Ultimate "Contrarian" Investment for 2007 -- Be Prepared" for some doomer porn. He goes all the way to talk about trapping animals and making shelters in forests.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat I am talking about could be summed up as: the lights go out and don't come back on again. Foreign oil shipments stop, or are blocked. Maybe freight shipments of goods from China and elsewhere become impossible. Maybe food is no longer delivered to the supermarket. In short, an economic breakdown something like what happened to the Soviet Union, but possibly on a worldwide scale. In such case, there will be no rescue because there will be nobody to do the rescuing.
There is a surprisingly long list of factors that may lead to such an outcome. The gradual and irreversible decline of world oil production, beginning approximately now, is one that has been getting the most attention.
...
If everyone is starving (as would quickly occur if shipments from food-growing areas ceased), then you will a) share your food with the hungry, in which case your supplies will quickly run out, or b) you will attempt to keep others from making use of your supplies, in which case you will man the machine gun posts until you are eventually overrun by those who become aware that you have the supplies they need ...
Article
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Re: Economist goes doomerish

Unread postby seahorse2 » Wed 10 Jan 2007, 19:03:15

I read the article, but it doesn't say who wrote it. How are you sure?
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