[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Concerned', '
')You're happy to have people ripped off thats fine, more power to you. In my opinion it certainly explains the current state of world affairs.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('max_power29', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'S')o how do you pay for the military or the police?

[rogerhb]

So once you have your perfect capitalist system, how do you keep it?

Money will attract money, and poverty will attract proverty, the rich will get richer the poor will get poorer.

So you can't have a complete democracy because eventually it will vote itself a safety net.

And if no safety net appears and the gap between rich and poor gets to great you will get a revolution.

Presumably this is why capitalists loved Pinochet.

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Concerned', '
')You're happy to have people ripped off thats fine, more power to you. In my opinion it certainly explains the current state of world affairs.

[jaws]

I certainly don't love Pinochet. Pinochet was a pawn in the CIA's arsenal to secure the American empire. He was certainly not an achievement of liberal doctrine.

What is the meaning of this statement? "Money will attract money, and poverty will attract proverty, the rich will get richer the poor will get poorer." It is meaningless. Sometimes the rich get richer, sometimes they don't. Sometimes the poor get poorer, sometimes they don't. History books of the industrial revolution are stocked with stories of people working themselves out of poverty through some clever invention or enterprise. And the same history books have plenty of records of wealthy families ruined by bad decisions.

Getting richer is no easy task. It takes work and skill. Luck alone will not do. Winning the lottery or at Vegas gets you a lot of wealth, but without skill you will spend through it quickly and end back into poverty. The rich are rich because they succeeded in providing the goods that other people wanted. The whole economy is structured to reward those who reward the consumers.

Poverty is a natural state of man, not of capitalism. It becomes obvious in capitalism because the talented go on to work themselves far from poverty and provide a contrast to the poor. But even in their poverty they profit, if not as much as others, from the productivity of the talented with access to ever cheaper and higher quality goods. They may not have much money, but in capitalism any money is the same as any other and commands the same attention from the talented. Just look at how many industries have been established to fulfill the needs of the lowest common denominator. Hollywood movies, pop culture magazines, fast food. The rich have no need for those, but the poor do, and the talented provide it for them. The only solution for those not talented enough to escape poverty is charity, an institution which can only exist in a free society.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Concerned', 'O')f course I can. I've told you many times before it has to do with the basics required for markets to function effectively. Openess, transparency and information.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'T')he whole economy is structured to reward those who reward the consumers.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'S')o we are talking about a system that does not require continual growth?

[emersonbiggins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'C')omplete openess, transparency and information is impossible.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', 'T')rue enough. If consumers were presented with 'method of origin' information, they might not be as inclined to buy the cheaper goods manufactured by third-world labor gulags in atrocious conditions. Keeping the masses' attention diverted toward frivolities, i.e. away from reality, is imperative in this particular 'free-market' economy.

[emersonbiggins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', 'T')rue enough. If consumers were presented with 'method of origin' information, they might not be as inclined to buy the cheaper goods manufactured by third-world labor gulags in atrocious conditions. Keeping the masses' attention diverted toward frivolities, i.e. away from reality, is imperative in this particular 'free-market' economy.

[jaws]

Hey if starvation and prostitution is their only alternative, it's because that's all they could get under the old system. The free market always means choosing between alternatives. Under the new system they can get a factory job which didn't exist under socialism. Their range of choice has increased. You have to agree it is a good thing, even if it means little from your point of view.

And don't pit blame for poor work conditions on capitalism. Conditions were even worse under socialism. It isn't even possible to count the number of Chinese coal miners who died because the government-managed mines were managed by incompetents.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'T')heir range of choice has increased. You have to agree it is a good thing, even if it means little from your point of view.

[jaws]

There are no guarantees of jobs for all under any system. Under socialism you might always be able to get a job but you would produce nothing. You are the equivalent of a welfare recipient in a capitalist country.

People are unemployed because they aren't producing anything that other people find valuable. Why should these other people provide them with their products for nothing in return?

[emersonbiggins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'H')ey if starvation and prostitution is their only alternative, it's because that's all they could get under the old system. The free market always means choosing between alternatives. Under the new system they can get a factory job which didn't exist under socialism. Their range of choice has increased. You have to agree it is a good thing, even if it means little from your point of view.

And don't pit blame for poor work conditions on capitalism. Conditions were even worse under socialism. It isn't even possible to count the number of Chinese coal miners who died because the government-managed mines were managed by incompetents.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'T')here are no guarantees of jobs for all under any system. Under socialism you might always be able to get a job but you would produce nothing. You are the equivalent of a welfare recipient in a capitalist country.

People are unemployed because they aren't producing anything that other people find valuable. Why should these other people provide them with their products for nothing in return?

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', '
')Capitalists aren't improving the lot much, if at all. Basically, they're making profits by utilizing the labor of an oppressed society, which costs them next to nothing. The oppressed society is ill-equipped to demand labor and environmental regulations, and corporations are quick to take advantage of this.

[emersonbiggins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'T')here's little I can say in rebuttal to this, since it is so utterly, obviously false. Get out of the house and look around you. Look at all that has been built. It was all made possible by people working for profit empowered by the capitalist system. And guess which countries have the strictest environmental regulations? The wealthiest, capitalist countries. It is not a coincidence.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', 'A')ctually, it was built by a capitalist society tempered with the regulations of a society that demands humane treatment of its citizens & environmental stewardship. Our country is most certainly not a product of an 'ideal' laissez-faire capitalist economy. If it were, then sweatshops would certainly exist in America all around us, polluting the environment would be the norm and we'd probably all live in crowded tenements. But it's not.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'C')apitalism is only a principle meaning private property and free trade. The alternative to capitalism is socialism, meaning government property and government monopoly. A capitalist market can coexist with a socialist enterprise, but there is no third way.