[PenultimateManStanding]

What the Bleep Do We Know is a documentary about quantum mechanics. Bunch of experts talking about the fascinating world of the very small. Though the point is made that the rules are different on different levels of reality they proceed to ignore that fact and go off on a spiel about how our world on our level is not what we think it is and interpret it with a quantum mechanical mindset. The result is a bunch of absurd propositions about life at the human level just as though the quantum laws applied to us and not just the world of the very small. No one seriously thinks that the stars in the heavens have any real astrological influence on us (unless they are superstitious or uneducated). Yet people are perfectly willing to believe the most ridiculous propositions (unless I look into the box, Schrodinger cat is both alive and dead at the same time, etc.) about life at this intermediate macro-level simply because of how things behave at the ultra-micro level. Seems to be a by-product of the old reductionist thinking - taken to the point of absurd extreme. Just goes to show how wrong the whole reductionist mind set is. I finally had enough and turned the DVD off. Phooey.

{touched up a bit; EE}

[Dukat_Reloaded]

Yes I saw that movie and it is total hogwash. Many of scientists they interviewed seemed like hindu newage spirtualists popping out garbage. It was a movie to wow people dumb people. From what I have heard, the movie was made by a cult leader. I found some quotes on the internet.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')nterspersed with the plot were interviews with various supposed scientists with something to say about quantum physics, consciousness, God, etc. On the whole they were a bunch of complete flakes, although one of them (David Albert) is a philosopher of science here at Columbia. Evidently Albert claims he was taken advantage of, that his interview was heavily edited to misrepresent his views.

[EnviroEngr]

To get the lowdown, visit Fermilab:

More About Particle Physics

The Science of Matter, Space and Time

Fermilab's Home Page

[DefiledEngine]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')The result is a bunch of absurd propositions about life at the human level just as though the quantum laws applied to us and not just the world of the very small. No one seriously thinks that the stars in the heavens have any real astrological influence on us (unless they are superstitious or uneducated). Yet people are perfectly willing to believe the most ridiculous propositions (unless I look into the box, Schrodinger cat is both alive and dead at the same time, etc.) about life at this intermediate macro-level simply because of how things behave at the ultra-micro level. Seems to be a by-product of the old reductionist thinking - taken to the point of absurd extreme. Just goes to show how wrong the whole reductionist mind set is. I finally had enough and turned the DVD off.

[EnviroEngr]

All I want to know is what's going on in the interface at the transition point between Newtonian Mechanics and Quantum Mechanics. The two obviously co-exist in the same frame of reference. What, exactly, happens when an 'observer' crosses over from one to the other?

[DefiledEngine]

Aren't newtonian mechanics flawed, and a simplification from relativity theory? As far as quantum uncertainty, it always exist, just often neglibly on larger scale. Overall, I thought it was a sliding scale. The uncertainty and duality effects get bigger the more microscopic you go.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DefiledEngine', '
')
I don't see how reductionism or Schroedinger's cat (something Schroedinger himself only used as an example of how quantum mechanics are incomplete, and how our ability to use them in everyday terms are compromised) have been refuted. However, quantum mechanics may have important influences on both evolution and on human conciousness/cerebral activity.
Furthermore, we have quantum computing, which also could show how quantum mechanics may affect macro-world extensively.

You don't notice quantum uncertainties, but they are there. And they do affect us. Or else, we would be able to measure an object exactly, which we can't. This, to me, seems quite the evidence for that quantum laws to apply to us.

Reductionism seems a credible way of analyzing phenomena.

[Petro]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnviroEngr', 'A')ll I want to know is what's going on in the interface at the transition point between Newtonian Mechanics and Quantum Mechanics. The two obviously co-exist in the same frame of reference. What, exactly, happens when an 'observer' crosses over from one to the other?

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnviroEngr', 'A')ll I want to know is what's going on in the interface at the transition point between Newtonian Mechanics and Quantum Mechanics. The two obviously co-exist in the same frame of reference. What, exactly, happens when an 'observer' crosses over from one to the other?

[PenultimateManStanding]

The only 'observers' we know of are ourselves and we are in a macroscopic world compared to the world of quantum effects. We 'observe' these effects with experimental apparatus and a heavy artillery of mathematical physics. So the question about observers actually moving into the quantum realm is meaningless. We exist where we exist and only prosthetics, mathematics and intellect can go where we can't. Its a fascinating subject and if anyone knows anything about quantum effects in the macroscopic realm of evolution and consciousness, please post it here.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'T')he only 'observers' we know of are ourselves and we are in a macroscopic world compared to the world of quantum effects. We 'observe' these effects with experimental apparatus and a heavy artillery of mathematical physics. So the question about observers actually moving into the quantum realm is meaningless. We exist where we exist and only prosthetics, mathematics and intellect can go where we can't. Its a fascinating subject and if anyone knows anything about quantum effects in the macroscopic realm of evolution and consciousness, please post it here.

[EnviroEngr]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnviroEngr', 'A')ll I want to know is what's going on in the interface at the transition point between Newtonian Mechanics and Quantum Mechanics. The two obviously co-exist in the same frame of reference. What, exactly, happens when an 'observer' crosses over from one to the other?

[PenultimateManStanding]

We can think and study QM, but unless you have an extraordinary travel agent, you can't book a vacation in QM land because when you get there you are still you, a fleshopoid in MacroLand.

[EnviroEngr]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'W')e can think and study QM, but unless you have an extraordinary travel agent, you can't book a vacation in QM land because when you get there you are still you, a fleshopoid in MacroLand.

[threadbear]

PMS--This is really ironic. I was just talking to Zentric about using lucid dreaming as a form of travel in the future-- particularly with the high energy cost of moving fleshopoids around Macroland. I'm surprised it's not readily apparent to more people, that dreams could be a product of the quantum realm that can not only be affected by the observer, but directed by the practised observer.

This doesn't take away from the notion that dreams are symbolic, too. One understanding of the nature of dreams, doesn't necessarily cancel out the other one.

PMS-- We are receptive to the quantum realm at the level of mind and choose whether or not to act on suggestions arising out of it. So there is an effect of micro on macro and rather than being devoid of meaning, it's pregnant with meaning. Meanings inside of meanings surrounded by other deeper richer meaning, taking you deeper and deeper and deeper. Hypnosis, a poorly understood phenomenon will eventually tell us more about the quantum realm than any other area.

I think perhaps where you get irritated, as I do, is with the idea that "you create your own reality". If I created my own reality I would defy gravity, surround myself with several house-boys, live in a loft in Manhattan and eat chocolate all day without gaining weight. "Creating your own reality" is a slogan tailor made for lazy thinkers. There's just enough truth there, to make it dangerous. The idea that people can have perfect control over their lives has become the philosophical travelling companion for the fascism we see clearly on the horizon. It isn't just fundamentalist Christianity that is cruel beneath a thin veneer of 'niceness'. The "you're just not there yet" crowd is mighty scary too.


Enviro--Thanks for the compliments. That's very generous of you. Your posts on this subject blow me away- so intelligent. I'm a novice in this area, but quite fascinated by it.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')PMS-- We are receptive to the quantum realm at the level of mind and choose whether or not to act on suggestions arising out of it.

I think perhaps where you get irritated, as I do, is with the idea that "you create your own reality". If I created my own reality I would defy gravity, surround myself with several house-boys, live in a loft in Manhattan and eat chocolate all day without gaining weight. "Creating your own reality" is a slogan tailor made for lazy thinkers.