[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('tokyo_to_motueka', '
')you must be joking?! the jobs are gone. done by people in other countries for a fraction of the wage paid in the US. factory floor, computer programming, engineering, design, production systems, etc., etc. all those people in China can do this stuff for much less and US companies are more than happy to fire their US workers, skilled and unskilled, and hire workers in China to do the same thing for 90% less cost.

[dgacioch]

There is nothing free about free trade in today's world. The system doesnt work, hasnt worked since Nixon took us off the gold standard and let the federal reserve print money at will. Price and wage inflation over the last 35 years (and currency rigging by trading partners) have robbed us of our competitiveness. As has been brought up, the loss of high paying manufacturing jobs has resulted in a net loss of real household income. I dont think people realize that all the labor gains of the last 100 years that people simply take for granted are slowly going out the window so we can buy cheap plastic junk from asian peasants (yes that includes you white collar free trade supporters as well. things like free no deductable health care, pensions, and COLA raises were mainstays of most companies as little as 20 years ago). THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY FOR BALANCED TRADE WITHOUT A COMPARABLE STANDARD OF LIVING BETWEEN TRADING PARTNERS. China and India remind me a lot of how the United States was over a hundred years ago. Workers live in factory dorms and are paid slave wages because "room and board" are provided. Workers are not allowed to organize, have to work as long as required, have literally no rights whatsoever, heck ive even heard of some factories closing up shop and reopening elsewhere to avoid paying workerss their monthly wages. In the United States workers organized and helped to elect representatives who looked out for our rights. We protested and and pushed and got labor laws passed which gave us a standard work week, and overtime pay if we worked beyond that. Those things will not happen in communist china, short of a full scale revolution. Before that happens, the chinese government WILL go to war, if for no other reason than to give the people someone to fight besides them.

[RdSnt]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('tokyo_to_motueka', 's')o i take it you support in principle most US workers being paid under $0.25/hour? just like their Chinese counterparts?

[Duende]

jaws wrote:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hey weren't attacked by Asian UFOs...

[marko]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'T')here is no tangible difference between national and international free trade. If you support free trade within your country you have to support it with other countries to remain logically consistent.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'O')ne of the good things of peak oil is that it will put a stop, or at least a good brake, to globalization. The price of transport is going to become a much more important consideration than before.

[Snowrunner]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('tokyo_to_motueka', 'a') lot of it has gone to China under joint ventures with Chinese state-owned enterprises (foreign investment rules require local participation).

[Snowrunner]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('marko', 'F')ree trade within the US (or within the EU or within any developed nation) is very different from international free trade. Within the US, workers are free to travel wherever they might get the best wage deal. They have some freedom to organize and join unions to improve their working conditions. There are occupational safety and environmental standards to protect workers and society.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('tokyo_to_motueka', 'S')o, in six years real income has fallen about $600 for the middle point households.

Sounds like all those service jobs pay so well!

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RdSnt', 'W')hat you are saying here though is that there is a difference between workers and consumers.
The only way the system works at the moment is for the manufacturing jobs to go to places where the workers can't afford the products they are making, thus keeping the prices low for the consumer. This is the modern equivalent of using slave labour.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dgacioch', 'T')here is nothing free about free trade in today's world. The system doesnt work, hasnt worked since Nixon took us off the gold standard and let the federal reserve print money at will. Price and wage inflation over the last 35 years (and currency rigging by trading partners) have robbed us of our competitiveness. As has been brought up, the loss of high paying manufacturing jobs has resulted in a net loss of real household income. I dont think people realize that all the labor gains of the last 100 years that people simply take for granted are slowly going out the window so we can buy cheap plastic junk from asian peasants (yes that includes you white collar free trade supporters as well. things like free no deductable health care, pensions, and COLA raises were mainstays of most companies as little as 20 years ago). THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY FOR BALANCED TRADE WITHOUT A COMPARABLE STANDARD OF LIVING BETWEEN TRADING PARTNERS.

[nero]

jaws,

You seem to believe that all trade is due to comparative advantage. But it is not true, the US right now imports 50% more than it exports. It issues dollar denominated debt for the rest. Some might think that the US is getting something for nothing in this deal, and that the Chinese must be fools to believe that the debt won't eventually be inflated away. However the Chinese government isn't as dumb as you might think, by subsidizing Chinese exports (through currency manipulation) they have encouraged an enormous amount of foreign direct investment. That is really the bargain America and China have made: "You give us cheap consumer goods and we'll teach you everything you need to know to be a world leading industrial economy."

Now that would be alright if America was simply teaching the Chinese, but part and parcel of exporting all those manufacturing jobs has been the hollowing out of the American manufacturing base. So it is very much a situation where America is paying for it's imports by exporting its "institutional memory".

It has more similarities to Saudi Arabia selling off their natural inheritance for consumer goods than it does traditional trade induced by comparative advantage.

[CrudeAwakening]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '
')You're still looking at the issue from your own western comfortable point of view. To an Asian just coming out of the rice fields, room and board at a factory is a pretty damn good deal. Remember they voluntarily took these jobs. The only alternative for them is to go back to living on the edge of starvation. Free trade with America and Europe makes this possible for them, and the accumulation of capital through their savings (Chinese have very high savings rate) will mean they will rapidly become wealthy from it.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CrudeAwakening', 'I') very much doubt that the Chinese factory workers on 10c/hour will "rapidly become wealthy" from their savings. This is quite ridiculous.

[tokyo_to_motueka]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'I')t is preposterous to claim that Americans haven't gotten wealthier since the Nixon era. Just look at the enormous size of new houses built today.

[nero]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('tokyo_to_motueka', '=') a massive increase of $5,676
spread over 31 years!

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nero', 'j')aws,

You seem to believe that all trade is due to comparative advantage. But it is not true, the US right now imports 50% more than it exports. It issues dollar denominated debt for the rest. Some might think that the US is getting something for nothing in this deal, and that the Chinese must be fools to believe that the debt won't eventually be inflated away.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CrudeAwakening', 'I') very much doubt that the Chinese factory workers on 10c/hour will "rapidly become wealthy" from their savings. This is quite ridiculous.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nero', 'j')aws,

You seem to believe that all trade is due to comparative advantage. But
.............
Now that would be alright if America was simply teaching the Chinese, but part and parcel of exporting all those manufacturing jobs has been the hollowing out of the American manufacturing base. So it is very much a situation where America is paying for it's imports by exporting its "institutional memory".
..........

[CrudeAwakening]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CrudeAwakening', 'I') very much doubt that the Chinese factory workers on 10c/hour will "rapidly become wealthy" from their savings. This is quite ridiculous.