[Ludi]

This thread is for discussion of how we will begin to work toward a global community solution to the problems of peak oil.


Edited to add- What can we do now to encourage governments to begin to implement some plan for accomodating a diminishing supply of oil and rising prices?

I'm not interested in what we "want to see" or "hope to see" I'm interested in how we can encourage our respective governments or other international agencies to begin to work toward a solution to living with these realities.

[MD]

We build global community solutions by starting at the bottom with small community solutions.
The current global systems are slowly proving unsustainable. Given a global decline, at any rae fast or slow, new systems will have to start from the bottom as we lack the will or the leadership to make the necessary changes voluntarily from the top.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MD', 'W')e build global community solutions by starting at the bottom with small community solutions.
The current global systems are slowly proving unsustainable. Given a global decline, at any rae fast or slow, new systems will have to start from the bottom as we lack the will or the leadership to make the necessary changes voluntarily from the top.

[backstop]

Ludi -

I'd differ with the premis of either/or T down or B up.

For a start it misses the potential of 'Middle out.'

Also, for people of good will to withdraw active support from global organization and co-operation is to leave the field wide open to banditry.

I don't say bandity doesn't have huge profile at present (e.g. John Bolton for a start) but to hope that major powers will collapse around us leaving new green shoots pushing through the ruins looks to me wildly optimistic.

Historically, a common aftermath of the chaotic collapse of heavily-armed empire (as opposed to a Gorbachev approach) is a prolongued period of petty warlordism. I guess we may agree that we just don't have the margin for the cultural and ecological destruction that such a collapse and aftermath would entail.

Given this planet's gravity, maybe walking away from its problems at the global scale is an illusion ?

If nation states are seen as juggernaut-busses trundling round a race-track of economic growth, competing aggressively for road-space and sequence, with us the people stuck inside of each vehicle, then present climate, water, soil and energy disruption would parallel rising problems in vital systems such as steering, braking and keeping speed up.

To sit in the back and hope for the best seems to me fatalistic, and an abdication of the duty to gain control of the risks of collision (intentional & accidental) and of sheer exhaustion of resources. Lack of confidence of success is no exemption from that duty. Indeed, discouraging dissenters from raising their game is clearly a prime goal of the status quo..

Given the four horses of global destabilization of: - the soil, [earth] - climate [air] - oil [fire] - and water [water], (not to mention the chicken [flu]) if we fail to recover and greatly raise global co-operation after Bush's demise, then the prospects for all of us, as peaceable rural dwellers globally, look to me very bleak.

Thus I'd warmly recommend a look at www.gci,org.uk and also a google for United Nations Association.


Please don't take the above (which is as near a rant as I care to get) as belittling the crucial roles of bottom up community development. Anything but !

regards,

Backstop

[Ludi]

Ok, I'm not really understanding your post here, backstop. This thread is about global community solutions. Please post what you see as being ways to encourage or implement such solutions.

[backstop]

Ludi -

I took global community to mean organized global relations with a permanent secretariat facilitating negotiations over the sustainable usage of global resources, inter-national conduct and the minimum norms of intra-national conduct, etc., as well as facilitating the broadcasting of information & expertize on a wide range of issues, from vacination to labour standards to education.

All of these services are highly valued around the world, perhaps apart from the well-propagandised US, whose citizens are none the less dependent on them both on holiday abroad and at home.

That's what I take global community to mean.

Did you mean something else, and if so, I wonder what ?

regards,

Backstop

[EnergySpin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('backstop', 'L')udi -

I took global community to mean organized global relations with a permanent secretariat facilitating negotiations over the sustainable usage of global resources, inter-national conduct and the minimum norms of intra-national conduct, etc., as well as facilitating the broadcasting of information & expertize on a wide range of issues, from vacination to labour standards to education.

All of these services are highly valued around the world, perhaps apart from the well-propagandised US, whose citizens are none the less dependent on them both on holiday abroad and at home.

That's what I take global community to mean.

Did you mean something else, and if so, I wonder what ?

regards,

Backstop

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('backstop', 'L')udi -

I took global community to mean organized global relations with a permanent secretariat facilitating negotiations over the sustainable usage of global resources, inter-national conduct and the minimum norms of intra-national conduct, etc., as well as facilitating the broadcasting of information & expertize on a wide range of issues, from vacination to labour standards to education.

All of these services are highly valued around the world, perhaps apart from the well-propagandised US, whose citizens are none the less dependent on them both on holiday abroad and at home.

That's what I take global community to mean.

Did you mean something else, and if so, I wonder what ?

regards,

Backstop

[deconstructionist]

global community solution-- work locally (i wish i could find a job in my hometown other than waitstaff), buy locally, support local agriculture. walk more. bike more. drive less. turn down the heat in the winter, use less A/C in the summer, get to know your neighborhood and the people in it. get involved in local politics. start building grassroots democracy from the ground up. take the power back.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deconstructionist', 'g')lobal community solution-- work locally (i wish i could find a job in my hometown other than waitstaff), buy locally, support local agriculture. walk more. bike more. drive less. turn down the heat in the winter, use less A/C in the summer, get to know your neighborhood and the people in it. get involved in local politics. start building grassroots democracy from the ground up. take the power back.

[Ghog]

1) I like the work close to home part. Since we don't actually make much in the US anymore, how hard could it be to have 1/4 of the population work from home? Elsewhere enforce carpooling/mass transit.

2) No more new building. Keep construction workers going by updating older home to make them more efficient. Tax incentives for families to live together? Level old homes and take back the land. Work on training/educating these communities in gardening, energy and water conservation, alt energy techniques.

[backstop]

Ludu -

With regard to global organization, I think the aspects both you and Energy Spin put forward are entirely valid. Many of them, such as WHO, IEA, etc are of course extant parts of the UN.

This is not to suggest either that all is right with the UN, or that I've ever seen a remotely credible plan for its replacement.

It was and largely is the product of its architects and their employers - and the architects plainly lacked any comprehension of systems-dynamic and particularly of lateral information flow, while their employers (US, USSR, UK, F) put Waldheim, a former nazi officer, to be General Secretary for 2 terms. (Later claimed they didn't know).

None of which detracts from the need for a stable global forum. The question for me is how to achieve the raising of its capacities, rather than their further gutting, a la John Bolton. And. in particular, "A Treaty of the Atmospheric Commons."

regards,

backstop

[Laurasia]

I, too, would like to see more people working from home, with access to training in the traditional arts and crafts which will be making a big come-back (I hope). These home-based workers could produce the textiles, the paper, the inks, the soaps etc, and of course, the organic food, that would be traded within the locality. Zoning laws should be relaxed so that small businesses could be located within neighbourhoods (Obviously this would be within reason - I would NOT like to live next door to local explosives-maker!). I think that with this community approach we would find people who were actually HAPPY in their jobs, which would make them healthier. Another point is that with jobs that were more low-tech PLUS the fact that organic farming is more labour-intensive, there would be work for more people. There might be a knock-on effect of a decrease in crime.

Just my tuppence...

L.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')his thread is for discussion of how we will begin to work toward a global community solution to the problems of peak oil.
............

[Macsporan]

Now this is more like it, but it's difficult to know where to start. What follows is an outline only.

An International PO movement begins furious agitation all over the world putting their message before the public so forcefully that even the most oafish, stay-at-home consumeroid is aware of the predicament of mankind. This message is carefully crafted: part Doomer to scare the masses into action, part solutions-oriented to maintain morale, give hope, prevent panic and foolish acts.

The US pays its dues and encourages all nations to reaffirm its commitment to the values of the UN.

The UN in special session announces to the world the imminence of PO and a plan to deal with it.

A series of powerdown agreements between nations are negotiated and put into practice, with most of the money coming from reductions in military spending. A huge global research effort into renewable energy is undertaken.

World industry is retooled to mass-produce solar, wind, tidal and nuclear energy fixtures on an enormous scale. Limited amounts of bio-fuel are produced to meet rock-bottom demands of a small fleet of propellor- driven commercial and military aircraft and emergency vehicles.

The world's road networks are replaced by electrified rail. Sailing ships return to the sea, more graceful and beautiful than ever.

The deserts bloom with solar cells. Wind generators adorn the hills.

Living standards in the First World gradually come down, but a comprehensive social-welfare and rationing system ease the pain.

Living standards in the 3rd World gradually improve underwritten by the same process.

The UN adopts "The Montequest Protocol" for population reduction and global populations start to decline smoothly. Global warming reverses.

Within a century world population is down to four billion and a abundant, non-polluting energy is available all over the world.

The Stars Beckon.

[NEOPO]

you left out "and they lived happily ever after"

As you ponder and wax idiotic please try to consider the nature of the beast in all of these scenarios

It is a creature of habit - dominating - controling and all consuming.

I could list 1000 things we could do "collectively" and 999 of these things will be things we "collectively" will not do - not soon enough and not enough of!!!

So can we REALLY count on the collective sheeplebeasts choosing all of a sudden to not migrate?
I think not!!

Why wait for a wave of change to wash you away when you can dive in today!!!
Meaning - do it now - get sufficient or take steps to become sufficient - reduce your own footprint on the planet - reduce your own consumption of fossil fuels - yes help raise awareness just dont be surprised at the looks you will get from people

In this scenario the consumer takes charge.
Collectively we DO NOT realize the real power each of us has.
Together we can form community again and thats exactly what some of us are doing - TODAY!!!!

Oh crap Ludi said GLOBAL!!!
There is no global solution as the world at its present population is totally freaking unsustainable!!!
I will go now and find a small person (midget) named master with far greater intellectual capacity then myself with which to form an alliance of convenience and thereby use the power of said alliance to control the pig shit factory post peak!!!

[Macsporan]

I've never understood why it's considered sophisticated and clever to despair, hope for nothing, hate everyone and commend yourself and all you know to the Infernal Gods, than to strive hopefully for a better world.

This is truly a sickness of the spirit.

We'll all be pleasantly surprised what we can do if we have to.

It's not altruism, although I like altruism, it's just about my favourite emotion, but fear of certain destruction.

With the alternatives so bleak and the path before us so attractive I think it will be easier than you think, easier than eating each other's grandmas and shooting the postman.

Nor do I agree with you bleak assessment of human nature. Greed and desire for domination are certainly part of the picture but so are love and kindness.

The first two are being artificially stimulated as part of a nasty two-generation long piece of Right Wing social engineering. The last two could be stimulated just as easily, given the right circumstances.

People have in the past associated together for the betterment of mankind. The idea that we have somehow lost the ability to do so is just plain silly. If anti-slavery activists, environmentalists, feminists, Unionists and other pressure-groups past and present, famous and obscure, can work the system than so can we.

As I have noted before: once society collapses 90% of a chance of survival dies with it. And that's what you guys want? Talk about sleeping rough. More like death-wish if you ask me.

If you want to die there are plenty of cliffs, roads, trees and ropes. Don't try and take everyone else with you. You don't have the right to dispose of the lives of the innocent and defenceless

And what about your parents, your grandparents and your children, and everyone else and their parents and children? If you want to sacrifice them for the sake of being a hairy-chested poseur in some debased quasi-feudal Jonestown, you belong on the Nut-Farm or the Maximum Security Jail not a civilised democratic community.

It's not going to be easy, but how easy do you think your favourite survivalist wet-dream is going to be? What makes you think that your own mean-spirited little community is going to survive when all the others are overrun by the Zombie/Mutant Suburbanites, or tear each other to pieces in intestine warfare over women, food and power?

You call what I propose far-fetched: Well, how much chance do you think you’ve got, my Survivalist friends? Talk about risking all you have on astronomically remote odds.

It is sheer folly. Utter madness.

In any case I'm sure the powers-that-be would like nothing better than people staying passive. Terrified Doomers and surly, anarchic Survivalists are no threat to them at all.

Anyway, if you don't want to participate in saving society you don't have to. You'll be missing out on the greatest adventure of your generation.

BTW, it is not the population that is unsustainable, just the Western lifestyle. Let's get rid of it. It's not all its cracked up to be anyway.

[Raxozanne]

Yeah Im despairing mate, you want to know why Im f******* despairing because I don't see anything turning this ship around. The Madmen at the helm won't let anyone like me near it.

I suggested powerdown to my MP and got told it was not an option. Do you really think that big business and governments will turn around and say 'yes actually this is unsustainable' lets change it all, the whole damn system...that is NOT REALISTIC. To them it is not negotiable, they will go down with the ship but they won't turn it around.

So go on and scream that we are not doing enough to make them change even thought to them it's not an option. Yes it must be our faults for not trying hard enough. Im sure if we gourged out our hearts and offered it to TPTB in return of powerdown they still wouldn't accept.

[Macsporan]

I appreciate your feelings. They are natural and deep.

However, I reiterate: if things are bad now, they will be a hundred times worse if society collapses.

So where do you make a stand?

Now or later?

I'd go for now.

Bush is powerful largely because no one is challanging him.

So challenge him as if your life depends on it.

Because it does.

[Liamj]

I don't buy the 'despairing doomers & surly survivalists' guilt trip, that seems to me to regularly cloud thinking about what will actually work with the 'do something, anything' disease. The claim of the high moral ground and crowding the kiddies and granda's 'round makes me think of Goebels. I've yet to see proof that saving everybody now is even a good idea, on other than personal/religious grounds (yes i am a monster, yawn).

I also don't think a traditional public affairs campaign advocating 'less is more' will succeed, as 70s hippies and 80-90s greenies might attest. So we've got 'new' (actually not) information thats even scarier.. hmm.

The local and the middle ground, thats where it'll work. If enough of the people of goodwill (who often have valuable skills and capital, if culturally woolly thinking) can be awakened, not stampeded into panic or selfishness, and applied to the countless problems that face us, thats what a workable global community solution will look like. Screw the govt, screw the centres of capital, screw the media, get in touch with the people who actually do (via their trade/prof/voluntary associations, school or church communities, deliberate cultivation) and try to help them take the important info onboard in a non-overwhelming way. They'll still be your neighbours after ? anyway.

So not the whole global community attempting to do much as one, instead 'just' transperantly swapping and open-sourcing the mech/cultural/biological technologies for post peak civilisation. An open market/workshop on ideas, that ppl adopt or not in their locale, that is our best chance. Spending more years fighting power where & how it is powerful is '..performing the same action and expecting different results'.