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Shame on America

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Re: Shame on America

Unread postby venky » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 11:41:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UncoveringTruths', 'T')he right to bear arms has made more than one country think before it fucked with us.

Maybe Hitler would've thought twice if England had a weapon behind every blade of grass.

There are pros and cons in the right to bear arms however.


Iraq was a country with one of the largest gun ownerships per capita in the world. Look how it has ended up. Do you really want your country to become like that?

Ofcourse life for the invaders is miserable, again look at Iraq, but at what price to ones country?
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Re: Shame on America

Unread postby Doly » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 11:50:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UncoveringTruths', '
')Maybe Hitler would've thought twice if England had a weapon behind every blade of grass.


Hitler attacked England mostly from the air. Try to gun down military planes.
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Re: Shame on America

Unread postby Chocky » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 11:57:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')enerations of gun ownership and a widespread ethic that "might makes right" have made Americans much more afraid of each other than Europeans are.


If Europeans were afraid of each other at least it would be justified, given the incredible slaughter we've seen in Europe over the past thousand years. I understand it was particularly appalling in the last hundred years or so.

Personally I'm apalled at your decision Marko. What you need are stronger personal convictions, not a gun. No not really, I'm glad that you're still capable of thinking rationally.
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Re: Shame on America

Unread postby Yossarian » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 12:26:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'A')n M-60 machine gun, with 2,000 belted 7.62 NATO rounds and lots of additional ammo in reserve. And additional weapons to support the effort.

Yes, it's legal, and all of the required paperwork required by the BATF is in good and proper order.


And that puts you at the top of the list when Martial Law is declared. They might even give you a call before they show up. :P The M-60 is a nice piece, but useless against a Bradlee Fighting Vehicle. Or a Molotov Cocktail from the back of said mob. You'd be doing a fire dance and the mob will have a singed M-60 w/1900 rds. Besides, you know numbers always win. You have revealed your undoing to us...Hubris. The greatest swordsman in all of France has nothing to worry about from the #2 man, but the rank amateur who does just what he's not supposed to do. Post-peak there’s goin' be lots of amateurs. :lol:
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Re: Shame on America

Unread postby Specop_007 » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 13:36:15

Reports of rapes and murders in the SuperDome.
Reports of rapes and murders in the Atrodome.
Reports of rapes at other meeting points.

You guys can go ahead and join the "peaceful, patience" masses at the Gubment Cheese Handout points.

Spec will keep his guns, shoot anyone who tries to murder or rape his wife, children or him and eat the food and drink the water he has stored away for himself.

Good luck to those depending on the government. ANY government,
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Re: Shame on America

Unread postby KevO » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 13:46:17

Amazin'!
Fucked up America.
You think that owning a gun is a necessity.
HELLO!
Using NO as the example for PO, look what'll happen when TSHTF.
Gun law- and all that goes with it..
Every dick shooting every other dick.
Paranoia and a road to hell.
The gun law of the US will come to haunt you all.

The world watched 911 unfold and we were told how calm and cool Americans were etc etc and we were all humbled- seriously but the proof is in New Orleans. We are all disgusted.
Mind you, in New York there wasn't a meal missed

You think and say that having a gun will defend you from the armed gangs that will be around. You'll just shoot each other to hell.

The rest of the world refers to yanks as Trigger happy as proved by every war they've been in.
More Brits have been killed in Iraq by yanks than by Iraqis!

Anyway, the USA's problems are self inflicted - you can se it now on TV live not just because of the gun, but because of the gun AND the American mind as shown on this very thread.

Canadians have pretty much the same access to guns as Americans yet the figure for gun crimes in both countries is?

Watch Michael Moore's, 'Bowling for Columbine' as pretty conclusive proof.

I understand that you're never going to get it and I understand that it's not really your individual faults, it's the culture you live in and for that I feel sorry.

Charlton Heston is a turd.

Don't get me wrong. If the UK had guns we'd be as bad, but we haven't.

Touche!
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Re: Shame on America

Unread postby Jack » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 15:21:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Yossarian', 'A')nd that puts you at the top of the list when Martial Law is declared. They might even give you a call before they show up.


Yes, I will indeed be on the list when martial law is declared - on the side of the Government. 8)
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Re: Shame on America

Unread postby dissimulo » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 15:28:34

The same people who think the US government is one of the worst on earth often argue that the US population should be unarmed. That never fails to astound me. Provision was made for an armed population (among other reasons) as a last defense against government tyrrany.

The recent emminent domain decision is sufficient reason to arm as far as I'm concerned.

Availability of guns to criminals is only a problem because we are much too easy on criminals.
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Re: Shame on America

Unread postby Specop_007 » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 15:54:57

Oh boy, where to start.....

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KevO', 'A')mazin'!
Fucked up America.
You think that owning a gun is a necessity.
HELLO!
Using NO as the example for PO, look what'll happen when TSHTF.
Gun law- and all that goes with it..
Every dick shooting every other dick.
Paranoia and a road to hell.
The gun law of the US will come to haunt you all.


Specop mainly sees looters, CRIMINALS, causing problems. You do know its against the law to steal right?
Oh wait, laws didnt stop them.....
Store owners who are in front of the store with a shotgun stopped them.
Laws arent worth the paper their printed on when TSHTF

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he world watched 911 unfold and we were told how calm and cool Americans were etc etc and we were all humbled- seriously but the proof is in New Orleans. We are all disgusted.
Mind you, in New York there wasn't a meal missed


2 completely different scenarios, in no way related.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou think and say that having a gun will defend you from the armed gangs that will be around. You'll just shoot each other to hell.


Havent heard many stories of the armed looters taking on the armed homeowners.....

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he rest of the world refers to yanks as Trigger happy as proved by every war they've been in.
More Brits have been killed in Iraq by yanks than by Iraqis!


How does that in any way have to do with being trigger happy?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nyway, the USA's problems are self inflicted - you can se it now on TV live not just because of the gun, but because of the gun AND the American mind as shown on this very thread.

The mind of the poor and criminal? Your logic is flawed at the core.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')anadians have pretty much the same access to guns as Americans yet the figure for gun crimes in both countries is?

No, they dont. Not even close. Flawed logic again.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')atch Michael Moore's, 'Bowling for Columbine' as pretty conclusive proof.

Not even close to accurate. best to cite non fiction when you cite a reference.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') understand that you're never going to get it and I understand that it's not really your individual faults, it's the culture you live in and for that I feel sorry.

Understand what? That the difference between having a gun and not is having Specops home robbed and wife raped and having the looters look for easier pickings?
Why dont you tell us, since your so up n up on everything, why is it theres cases of rabe, murder and robbery INSIDE the AstroDome? INSIDE the SuperDome. Theres no guns in there......

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')harlton Heston is a turd.

Your entitled to your opinion.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')on't get me wrong. If the UK had guns we'd be as bad, but we haven't.

Touche!
Better brush up on those laws again. You can own guns in the UK.

Touche that,
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Re: Shame on America

Unread postby Yossarian » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 16:03:41

Whether one realizes it or not, the belief that guns will save you post peak is the same level of faith that a 'technofix' will advert a peak in the first place. "That said, all options are on the table." :P
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Re: Shame on America

Unread postby k_semler » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 16:27:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dukey', 'n')o one here (the UK) has guns, except for maybe a few people who like to actually go out shooting (ducks rabbits whatever). That's it.

it fucking amazes me when you see americans having M16s ak47's for 'home defence'. Defence against what ? An invading army ? Are you that scared of your neighbours you need enough ammo to take out the whole village ? And as for your comment jack. When has there EVER been an angry mob outside your house ? And if there was an angry mob would you be prepared to open fire on this angry mob ? And what if this angry mob were also equally or better armed ?

I love that comment by someone on this site. Everyone having guns is the same as no one having guns, only worse.


Here's what the defense is against: government tyranny. I don't even trust the government to spend less than $5.00 on a roll of toilet paper after all the red tape has passed. I trust them even less with my life, liberty, and property.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. They feed them on falsehoods till wrong looks like right in their eyes."
--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

"The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed, which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... (where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
–-James Madison

"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress shall have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American ... The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or
state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the People."

-- Tench Coxe, 1788.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
--Thomas Jefferson

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined...The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
--Patrick Henry

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
--George Washington

"The possession of arms by the people is the ultimate warrant that government governs only with the consent of the governed."
--Jeff Snyder

"Liberties are not given; they are taken."
-- Aldous Huxley

"Liberty has never come from government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of government. The history of liberty is a history of resistance. The history of liberty is a history of limitations of government power, not the increase of it."
--Woodrow Wilson

USC Title 10, Subtitle A, Part 1, Chapter 13, Section 311

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied
ales at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
Here Lies the United States Of America.

July 04, 1776 - June 23 2005

Epitaph: "The Experiment Is Over."

Rest In Peace.

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Re: Shame on America

Unread postby venky » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 16:38:47

The point is are armed citizens any match for a modern army? Wouldn't it just make the invaders or the tyrannical government. come down much harder amongst the civilian population in its efforts to disarm them?
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Re: Shame on America

Unread postby Specop_007 » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 16:48:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', 'T')he point is are armed citizens any match for a modern army? Wouldn't it just make the invaders or the tyrannical government. come down much harder amongst the civilian population in its efforts to disarm them?


Absolutely they are.
Its not the weapons, its the tactics. History is littered with the remains of once great armies who were bested on the field of battle with inferior weapons and better tactics.

The Art of War,
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Re: Shame on America

Unread postby dissimulo » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 16:51:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', 'T')he point is are armed citizens any match for a modern army? Wouldn't it just make the invaders or the tyrannical government. come down much harder amongst the civilian population in its efforts to disarm them?


The "insurgents" in Iraq appear to be doing a pretty good job thwarting the modern US army.
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Re: Shame on America

Unread postby k_semler » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 17:00:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KevO', 'A')mazin'!
Fucked up America.
You think that owning a gun is a necessity.
HELLO!
Using NO as the example for PO, look what'll happen when TSHTF.
Gun law- and all that goes with it..
Every dick shooting every other dick.
Paranoia and a road to hell.
The gun law of the US will come to haunt you all.


Driving drunk is illegal too, and so is vehicular assault and slander. Even in peace time laws are only as good as the people willing to abide by them. Hell, going faster than 60 MPH is illegal too, but I do it every day. Criminals commit crimes, that's why they are called criminals. :roll:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KevO', 'T')he world watched 911 unfold and we were told how calm and cool Americans were etc etc and we were all humbled- seriously but the proof is in New Orleans. We are all disgusted.

Mind you, in New York there wasn't a meal missed
No argument there. Disasters such as this bring out the best and worst of people. It seems to me that most of the people that were actually worth the oxygen they consume have already been evacuated from the city, or are in the process of being evacuated. Once evacuations are complete, I wouldn't have any objection to just returning the city back to the Gulf of Mexico, (or just seal it for 3 years and let the gang thugs starve to death.)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KevO', 'Y')ou think and say that having a gun will defend you from the armed gangs that will be around. You'll just shoot each other to hell.


Not if I discharge first. They would be concerened with looking cool to thier homies while shooting with no paticular target in mind, I would just be concened with ending the threat using any and all force required. If it calls for taking thier life, so be it. They had a chance to stop being a threat.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KevO', 'T')he rest of the world refers to yanks as Trigger happy as proved by every war they've been in.


Duh. If somebody is shooting at you, and you have nowhere to run to, are you going to just wait for them to come for you and drive bamboo splints under your fingernails, or are you going to start shooting at the commie rats whenever you can. I would sure fire back. I will probably die, but at least I would take a few Nazis in head rags with me. The enemy is the enemy, often the only way to end thier immediate threat is to engage the target. You either shoot and maybe die, or don't shoot and die after being slowly tortured and starved. Your socialist government isn't going to save your ass when TSHTF.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KevO', 'M')ore Brits have been killed in Iraq by yanks than by Iraqis!

Maybe if they weren't so concerned with spouting off thier mouths about the wonders of a socialist nanny state, they wouldn't be dying so much?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KevO', 'A')nyway, the USA's problems are self inflicted - you can se it now on TV live not just because of the gun, but because of the gun AND the American mind as shown on this very thread.

Take away the guns, and they will still have clubs to beat each other with. What's next ban everything that could even remotly be used as a weapon? Wow, looks like we have to ban hands and feet now. Heads too. You can headbutt somebody and break thier nose.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KevO', 'C')anadians have pretty much the same access to guns as Americans yet the figure for gun crimes in both countries is?

So now you are not blaming the gun? Make up your mind man! According to you, guns commit murders by themselves.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KevO', 'W')atch Michael Moore's, 'Bowling for Columbine' as pretty conclusive proof.

"Micheal Moore" and "Conclusive Proof" don't even belong in the same paragraph, let alone sentence. He is just a left wing propagandist that puts out drivel to forward his global socialist, defenseless, agenda. If it were up to me, he would be thrown out of the country, and expatriated.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KevO', 'I') understand that you're never going to get it and I understand that it's not really your individual faults, it's the culture you live in and for that I feel sorry.

You're right. I am not a socialist, nor have I ever been. Socialists and communists are in the same boat as far as I am concerned.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KevO', 'C')harlton Heston is a turd.

I'll drink to that. He waivers too much. Negotiations with the terrorist element within our congress, (virtually anyone with a D by thier name), is the most sure fire way to slowly erode our rights. I support JFPO and GOA over the NRA, (Not Really Active), any day of the week. The NRA is the Neville Chamberlin of the gun orginisations.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KevO', 'D')on't get me wrong. If the UK had guns we'd be as bad, but we haven't.

Touche!

Yeah, that's coming from a place that is considering banning KITCHEN KNIFES and IMITATION WEAPONS! I thought banning all the guns would solve your problems? Oh, I guess it didn't. :lol:
Here Lies the United States Of America.

July 04, 1776 - June 23 2005

Epitaph: "The Experiment Is Over."

Rest In Peace.

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Re: Shame on America

Unread postby k_semler » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 17:38:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', 'T')he point is are armed citizens any match for a modern army? Wouldn't it just make the invaders or the tyrannical government. come down much harder amongst the civilian population in its efforts to disarm them?


In a conventional warfare setting, yes. But if you consider geurilla warfare, the citizens have the advantage by far. Just take a walk around your town. Notice how many places that provide cover, (or even concealment). In an urban setting in full combat, it is virtually impossible to eliminate all insurgent operations unless a Dresdin or Hiroshima technique is used. Hell, the feds are already having a hard enough time in New Orleans, and they aren't fighting an insurgent force. There it is just a bunch of punks looting, pillaging, and raping. That's not exactly the way to get support from the population for your cause.

Geurilla warfare is just as much about psychologal operations as it is about millitary operations. If you don't have support of the local population, then your end goal will not be reached. Plus, the insurgents have the advantage of having much smaller units, and are able to penetrate into enemy territory with a much less chance of being detected. For the small unit, avoiding a firefight is crucial to your operations when in enemy territory. Also, I would personally rather have somebody adequatly trained with a singleshot .22 rifle on my side, than an untrained person with an M16A2.
Here Lies the United States Of America.

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Epitaph: "The Experiment Is Over."

Rest In Peace.

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Re: Shame on America

Unread postby venky » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 18:22:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dissimulo', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', 'T')he point is are armed citizens any match for a modern army? Wouldn't it just make the invaders or the tyrannical government. come down much harder amongst the civilian population in its efforts to disarm them?


The "insurgents" in Iraq appear to be doing a pretty good job thwarting the modern US army.


But look at the cost, 100,000 dead, DU contaminating their environment for infinity, prospect of civil war, culture or war and rise of extremism, no basic security, rampant anarchy.

Oh, they might succeed in driving the Americans out due increasing political pressure at home, but Iraq is more or less finished as a country.
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Re: Shame on America

Unread postby venky » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 18:28:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('k_semler', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', 'T')he point is are armed citizens any match for a modern army? Wouldn't it just make the invaders or the tyrannical government. come down much harder amongst the civilian population in its efforts to disarm them?


In a conventional warfare setting, yes. But if you consider geurilla warfare, the citizens have the advantage by far. Just take a walk around your town. Notice how many places that provide cover, (or even concealment). In an urban setting in full combat, it is virtually impossible to eliminate all insurgent operations unless a Dresdin or Hiroshima technique is used. Hell, the feds are already having a hard enough time in New Orleans, and they aren't fighting an insurgent force. There it is just a bunch of punks looting, pillaging, and raping. That's not exactly the way to get support from the population for your cause.

Geurilla warfare is just as much about psychologal operations as it is about millitary operations. If you don't have support of the local population, then your end goal will not be reached. Plus, the insurgents have the advantage of having much smaller units, and are able to penetrate into enemy territory with a much less chance of being detected. For the small unit, avoiding a firefight is crucial to your operations when in enemy territory. Also, I would personally rather have somebody adequatly trained with a singleshot .22 rifle on my side, than an untrained person with an M16A2.


I put it to you that a Dresden or Hiroshima technique might be the norm post peak-oil.

Besides look at the ratio in Iraq in the guerilla war., 100000:2000, 50 Iraqi's for every American, ofcourse not that US casualties are insignificant. Maybe the insurgents or militia can inflict substantial losses on the invading or tyrranical force, but they cant defeat it, only hope to outlast it. And the damage on the civilian population will be devastating.

I think pretty much you achieve nothing more than being able to die with 'glory'.
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Re: Shame on America

Unread postby Permanently_Baffled » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 18:34:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Yeah, that's coming from a place that is considering banning KITCHEN KNIFES and IMITATION WEAPONS! I thought banning all the guns would solve your problems? Oh, I guess it didn't.


What problems?(see below)

US Figures:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')In the U.S. for 2001, there were 29,573 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 16,869; Homicide 11,348; Accident 802; Legal Intervention 323; Undetermined 231.(CDC, 2004)


UK Figures:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')GUN CRIME: YEAR TO JUNE 04
Fatalities: 70 (-15%)

Source: Home Office recorded crime figures. Comparisons are with year to June 03


70 versus 29,500 LOL :lol:

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Re: Shame on America

Unread postby Z » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 18:47:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', 'B')esides look at the ratio in Iraq in the guerilla war., 100000:2000, 50 Iraqi's for every American, ofcourse not that US casualties are insignificant. Maybe the insurgents or militia can inflict substantial losses on the invading or tyrranical force, but they cant defeat it, only hope to outlast it. And the damage on the civilian population will be devastating.


And how long will the US be able to dump billions of dollars into this quagmire ? How many trillions will the American citizens authorize to be wasted for next to nothing ? This is a war of attrition, and in fact massive casualties are playing in the insurgents' hand.
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