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PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Nothing to fear but fear itself

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: The Only Thing We Have to Fear...

Postby Ming » Mon 29 Aug 2005, 19:13:09

The USD is not overvalued in relation to many currencies (like the EUR, for example).

It is overvaluated in relation to the Yuan (and some other less impontant currencies), but that is more a case of the Yuan being undervaluated...
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Re: The Only Thing We Have to Fear...

Postby Ming » Mon 29 Aug 2005, 19:17:09

However I don’t believe the future is totally unpredictable.

Educated guesses can perform very well on most accounts.

The global petroleum evolution in the next decades is one of the easy to predict cases...
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Re: The Only Thing We Have to Fear...

Postby MonteQuest » Mon 29 Aug 2005, 19:26:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JudoCow09', 'T')hat is opinion. Everyone THINKS the US dollar will go down. Googling for people who THINK the same thing you do doesn't mean it's still possible that it will never happen. I don't care what other people THINK will happen. I want you to understand that just because half the world THINKS it will happen doesn't mean it will. Heck, half the world THINKS they'll continue this lifestyle, but you don't agree with them, do you?

And please just cut out the rude remarks. There's no need to insult me every time you make a post.


Then don't make illogical statements. People think the dollar will go down?

The dollar is like an overvalued growth stock, it is over-bought. A weaker dollar would hinder the access of the American consumer to cheap foreign items and therefore lead to higher inflation. We export our inflation by buying cheap foreign goods made at low wages. In other words, the US has a large and unsustainable trade deficit because the dollar is over-valued. The only plausible way in which this deficit can be brought down to a manageable level is through a sharp decline in the value of dollar. The larger the trade imbalance becomes, the farther the dollar must fall.

Here is a good read to further explain the dilemma we are in:

The Trade Deficit and the Over-Valued Dollar
http://www.uscc.gov/hearings/2005hearin ... n_wrts.pdf

We have three choices:

1. Increase the savings rate
2. Increase exports by 51%
3. Raise interest rates to curb consumer spending and initiate a recession.

And you say the dollar going down is speculation?

Much of this is speculation to you because you do not understand the forces at play.

And as far as googling. Google anybody who says it won't or doesn't need to go down and post a link.
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Re: The Only Thing We Have to Fear...

Postby Ludi » Mon 29 Aug 2005, 19:30:38

If I drop a heavy object and say "This object will hit the floor" am I speculating?
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Re: The Only Thing We Have to Fear...

Postby JudoCow09 » Mon 29 Aug 2005, 20:02:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f I drop a heavy object and say "This object will hit the floor" am I speculating?


You bet a million dollars that object will hit the floor and I'll catch it before it does. Yes, you are speculating. There are these things called variables. Variables are unknown. Therefore you can never say something will definetly happen.

Monte:
What if we increased exports by 51%? You think the improbable is impossible. I want you to grasp my concept. Just because it's improbable doesn't make it impossible. When scientists go out and test something dangerous and there's a .001% chance of something happening that could destroy the earth, do they sit there and not bother taking precautions?

Would you rather I called it an educated guess? Same thing in my book, but if it'll make you feel better...
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Re: The Only Thing We Have to Fear...

Postby emersonbiggins » Mon 29 Aug 2005, 20:13:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JudoCow09', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f I drop a heavy object and say "This object will hit the floor" am I speculating?


You bet a million dollars that object will hit the floor and I'll catch it before it does. Yes, you are speculating. There are these things called variables. Variables are unknown. Therefore you can never say something will definetly happen.

Monte:
What if we increased exports by 51%? You think the improbable is impossible. I want you to grasp my concept. Just because it's improbable doesn't make it impossible. When scientists go out and test something dangerous and there's a .001% chance of something happening that could destroy the earth, do they sit there and not bother taking precautions?

Would you rather I called it an educated guess? Same thing in my book, but if it'll make you feel better...


Enter Occam's Razor. Anything might happen, but the probability is negligible to the point that it can be reasonably ignored. How would you leave the house if anything could happen to you?
"It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."

George Carlin
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Re: The Only Thing We Have to Fear...

Postby MonteQuest » Mon 29 Aug 2005, 20:50:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JudoCow09', ' ')Monte:
What if we increased exports by 51%? You think the improbable is impossible. I want you to grasp my concept. Just because it's improbable doesn't make it impossible.


Do you read what you write?

Provide any link that says US exports are destined to, or can be increased 51%.
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Re: The Only Thing We Have to Fear...

Postby MonteQuest » Mon 29 Aug 2005, 20:54:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JudoCow09', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f I drop a heavy object and say "This object will hit the floor" am I speculating?


You bet a million dollars that object will hit the floor and I'll catch it before it does. Yes, you are speculating.


She is talking about a basic premise.

So, you are saying the laws of gravity are speculation?

That you cannot make predictions based upon them?
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Re: The Only Thing We Have to Fear...

Postby Guest » Mon 29 Aug 2005, 20:59:02

JudoCow,

Ok, I'll adopt an optimistic viewpoint -

I choose to believe that YOU, JudoCow will :

Invent a limitless source of inexpensive power that can be stored in portable form for use in vehicles, and bring it on-line in a widespread fashion within the next 5 years.

Solve in the next 5 years the problems with hydrogen fusion that the worlds best scientists have been struggling to solve for the last 50+ years.

Invent "Star Trek" style replicators (in the next 5 years) to magically produce plastics, pharmaceuticals and fertilizers.

What, you don't believe you can do that?

You pessimist.

(sigh) Children. Hasn't read Long Emergency, hasn't read "Oil Age is Over", hasn't done the math, want's to put on a brave face and believe the faeries will save us.

(sigh)
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Re: The Only Thing We Have to Fear...

Postby MonteQuest » Mon 29 Aug 2005, 20:59:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JudoCow09', ' ') Maybe we are subject to Liebig's Law.


Maybe?

So, Judo, please tell us what sets the upper limit of any given species population, if not the law of the minimum?
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Re: The Only Thing We Have to Fear...

Postby Ludi » Mon 29 Aug 2005, 22:09:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JudoCow09', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f I drop a heavy object and say "This object will hit the floor" am I speculating?


You bet a million dollars that object will hit the floor and I'll catch it before it does. Yes, you are speculating. There are these things called variables. Variables are unknown. Therefore you can never say something will definetly happen.



Ok. I just wanted to check where your "speculating" threshold is. Considering the fact that you're not in the room here with me, and I just dropped a heavy object which did hit the floor, I don't put much stock in what you consider "speculating."
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Re: The Only Thing We Have to Fear...

Postby sameu » Tue 30 Aug 2005, 06:49:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jaymax', 'T')he difference is, that even though I fundamentally agree with the great majority of your speculations, I understand that that is what they are.

That leaves me open to continually questioning and challenging my beliefs and speculations - god help me indeed if I ever become as sure of my future as you. I've got a lot of respect for you MonteQuest, but it does not extend to your ability to know the future.

Regards,

--J


yep, I fully agree with Jaymax

your speculations are probably correct, probably
but as I said, lets look at the facts
And no one can predict the future with 100% certainty

And about Liebig's Law, I don't think it applies that much to us people
oil will be the limiting resource, implying no more growth and die-off etc
but in our system we need energy, now it's provided to us in the easy cheap form as oil, hurray, and that oil will get less and less abundant
But that doesn't mean our system will be dead, there will still be energy in the form of the everlasting sun, ok, it's not the most practical form of energy, but every day the world is flooded by energy in the form of sunlight; so our energy resource (whatever in what form) will not be vanished
When the sun dies off, then Liebig's Law applies 100%
imho of course
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Re: The Only Thing We Have to Fear...

Postby jvangi » Tue 30 Aug 2005, 07:55:37

Be optimistic indeed.
Save YOURself because that is possible.

And... who knows. If enough persons manage to save him/herself, the YOUR can become an OUR.

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Re: The Only Thing We Have to Fear...

Postby jvangi » Tue 30 Aug 2005, 08:01:56

By the way, to become optimistic:
Read "A theory of Power" by Jeff Vail.

Chomsky said "it's fascinating", I say "it's true".

A theory of Power
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Re: The Only Thing We Have to Fear...

Postby MonteQuest » Tue 30 Aug 2005, 11:45:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sameu', ' ')And about Liebig's Law, I don't think it applies that much to us people. oil will be the limiting resource, implying no more growth and die-off etc but in our system we need energy, now it's provided to us in the easy cheap form as oil, hurray, and that oil will get less and less abundant.

But that doesn't mean our system will be dead, there will still be energy in the form of the everlasting sun, ok, it's not the most practical form of energy, but every day the world is flooded by energy in the form of sunlight; so our energy resource (whatever in what form) will not be vanished When the sun dies off, then Liebig's Law applies 100%
imho of course


Liebig's Law doesn't say the system will be dead. It sets the limiting factor, which you just admitted will be energy.

Will the equivalent of oil energy be available to us in the form of solar post-peak? Of course.

Will it be accessible? No, not on any scale that we will need.

And that is the point.
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Re: The Only Thing We Have to Fear...

Postby JudoCow09 » Tue 30 Aug 2005, 20:49:37

Quick question Monte.

One of the illustrations we've seen for Liebig's law includes a bucket with different length planks. Would you say energy was one of those planks?

And while we're at it, care to tell me why this is impratical or a lie?
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Re: The Only Thing We Have to Fear...

Postby Ludi » Tue 30 Aug 2005, 21:11:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') solar area of only 100 square miles -- a size of land that equals only nine percent of the state of Nevada -- can generate enough electricity for the entire United States.


Kewl! When will the electric auto infrastructure be online to accomodate the 2% decline in oil post-po, plus 2% additional demand?

Oh sorry, that's for another thread, probably....
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Re: The Only Thing We Have to Fear...

Postby MonteQuest » Tue 30 Aug 2005, 21:18:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JudoCow09', 'Q')uick question Monte.

One of the illustrations we've seen for Liebig's law includes a bucket with different length planks. Would you say energy was one of those planks?


Depends on it's application. Energy or food is always one of those planks with regard to living things as we couldn't live without it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd while we're at it, care to tell me why this is impratical or a lie?


Impractical or a lie in relation to what?

The issue isn't about the availabliity of energy, i.e., the sun. It is about access. Solar is 1000th of 1% of the energy currently accessible to man. It cannot be scaled up to be as accessible as oil in the time frame we need it, nor will it have the energy density and portability.

As to "lie", it is a "sales pitch" and not a peer reviewed study.
Last edited by MonteQuest on Tue 30 Aug 2005, 21:22:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Only Thing We Have to Fear...

Postby JudoCow09 » Tue 30 Aug 2005, 21:18:10

By the way, Ludi. As soon as you take me away, you place the experiment in a controlled situation, which we can't say the supposeable die-off is the equivilant to a scientific experiment in a controlled area. Doesn't work.

Secondly, if what that article says is true, which apparently isn't completely reliable, the technology will be capable of being mass produced September, and if that's the case, it can start way before peak hits.

Darn Bananas. 8O
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Re: The Only Thing We Have to Fear...

Postby JudoCow09 » Tue 30 Aug 2005, 21:24:02

I just wanted to make sure you didn't think energy could be one of those planks.

So are you trying to tell me that there just isn't enough sun for us to get the energy we need. And I have a hard time believing that solar is .001% of the energy accessible to man if you're comparing it to oil. According to this article, it can supply energy for the whole United States in an area that's equal to 9% of Nevada. Please explain.
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