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THE Cindy Sheehan Thread (merged)

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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby BitterSweetCrude » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 21:29:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', 'Y')ou're right. She's a crackpot, she has a right to say what she wants, but leaving Iraq now is just inviting the whole place to descend into chaos, and who knows how bad it would get.

Sure we messed up going into Iraq, but leaving now would be far worse for everyone.
I don't understand how you can make a statement like this. Everything the U.S. has done in Iraq so far has made things worse. Things are descending into chaos with the U.S. there. If the U.S. stays things will be worse for everyone. If the U.S. leaves, maybe things will get worse, maybe they will get better. Either way there is nothing the U.S. can do about it anymore. I'm going to tell you something that is incomprehensible to Americans and runs counter to everything you've been told since the beggining of your life, but you must hear it. The situation in Iraq is beyond your control. There are no actions you can execute that will fix Iraq. You can't win. You can lose a little or you can stick it out longer and lose a lot.

Empires collapse because they start to believe their own propaganda and overextend themselves. You're overextended, it's time to eat some dirt and consolidate your position.


Well I tried some dirt and it didn't taste very good. ;-)

I'm not sure what you're suggesting as the alternative, just to leave and let SA take over? I didn't think we should have gone into Iraq, but we are where we are, and we need to choose the best option going forward. I agree completely that those who planned the rebuilding made countless mistakes (why has Rumsfeld not been fired?) I disagree that the best option going forward is to tuck tail and run. I guess we just disagree.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby BitterSweetCrude » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 21:38:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnemyCombatant', 'I') don't want to pay for when I can't even afford healthcare.
...

If you really want my opinion.

We should give Saddam Hussein a shave and a shower and instill him as dictator again. He knows how to put the smack down.

Honestly, I don't know the answer. I'm not qualified. But neither are the neocons. WE should open this up to a national debate without it turning into a 2 minute hate.


We don't have health care in this country, we have sick care. ;-) Obesity is up to 25% or something of the population. We spend way more money treating obesity than on education.

Heh, Saddam's Iraq was definitely more stable and less terrorist filled than The Islamic Republic of Iraqistan.

I think we should have split the country up by ethnic group and given it to its neighbors. Too late for that now probably.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby jaws » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 21:44:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', 'I')'m not sure what you're suggesting as the alternative, just to leave and let SA take over? I didn't think we should have gone into Iraq, but we are where we are, and we need to choose the best option going forward. I agree completely that those who planned the rebuilding made countless mistakes (why has Rumsfeld not been fired?) I disagree that the best option going forward is to tuck tail and run. I guess we just disagree.
That's the problem with Americans. You believe that without you the world will tear itself apart. Maybe SA will take over, and you know what? That wouldn't be such a bad thing. Maybe Iran will take over and it wouldn't be such a bad thing. Maybe Communism will finally roll over the last dominoes, or Napoleon will make the world unsafe for democracy. There's always something that will be happening somewhere that you feel is your business when it's not your business.

It doesn't matter how it ends in Iraq because the end is inevitable. It was inevitable the day you rolled into the country without a plan or any local allies. Every day you stay the end becomes worse for them and for yourself. Accept failure.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby Free » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 21:57:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', '
')You're right. She's a crackpot, she has a right to say what she wants, but leaving Iraq now is just inviting the whole place to descend into chaos, and who knows how bad it would get.

Sure we messed up going into Iraq, but leaving now would be far worse for everyone.


Hey I have an idea, how about asking those people who will have to live with the result either way, the Iraqis? Oh I forgot it has been done already in several polls and funny enough they always show that a majority, no matter what tribe, wants the Yanks to leave as fast as possible.

But I forgot, you like to stick to your model of democracy and let some few people who never got elected by a majority of the people in the first place decide what is best for the rest of the world...

Yes you messed the place up worse then ten Saddams could have done it, like every sane person on this planet told you that it would happen BEFORE the war even started.

Now get the f*** out of there as fast as possible and let other people take over who hardly can do a worse job than you did - or would you let somebody who just burned down your stable and keeps pouring gasoline in the fire going on, even if he insisted that he just wanted to save your house from catching fire??? :x
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby BitterSweetCrude » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 22:00:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'T')hat's the problem with Americans. You believe that without you the world will tear itself apart. Maybe SA will take over, and you know what? That wouldn't be such a bad thing. Maybe Iran will take over and it wouldn't be such a bad thing. Maybe Communism will finally roll over the last dominoes, or Napoleon will make the world unsafe for democracy. There's always something that will be happening somewhere that you feel is your business when it's not your business.

It doesn't matter how it ends in Iraq because the end is inevitable. It was inevitable the day you rolled into the country without a plan or any local allies. Every day you stay the end becomes worse for them and for yourself. Accept failure.


I'm not sure about your argument, because can't someone else say it wasn't the Soviet Union's business to try to spread Communism by force. Can't someone saw it wasn't Saddam's business to invade Kuwait, it wouldn't be Iran/SA's business to take over Iraq. It wasn't France/Britain's business to declare war on Germany when Hitler invaded Poland, but then again it wasnt Hitler's business to invade Poland. It's the exact same line of reasoning so I'm not sure why you single America out for being involved in world affairs. I just don't think the "not your business" argument really works, but that's all my opinion.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby Geology_Guy » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 22:17:30

So if we should leave Iraq should we also leave Bosnia and Kosovo? At least the Serb parts of Bosnia? The Serbs do not want us there.

Thats what I can never understand about the American left-Bush wars bad, but Clinton wars good? I thought all wars were bad? Young American men also died under Clinton's orders in the Balkans.

Should the next liberal/progressive American president renounce all use of American troops overseas and bring our troops home from Korea etc ?
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby MrBean » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 22:24:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', '
')I'm not sure what you're suggesting as the alternative, just to leave and let SA take over? I didn't think we should have gone into Iraq, but we are where we are, and we need to choose the best option going forward. I agree completely that those who planned the rebuilding made countless mistakes (why has Rumsfeld not been fired?) I disagree that the best option going forward is to tuck tail and run. I guess we just disagree.


From any ethical utilitarian perspective the only right thing for US to do is to withdraw ASAP, pay compensations for Iraqi people for all the damage and misery you've caused and put the US (and UK) war criminals in jail.

Care for Iraqi people is not even a lame excuse for continuing occupation and control of oil and the necessary looting and killing that go with the job, it's just a sick joke that sadly still so many "innocent" Americans try to believe.

Heal thyself, "healer", stop spreading the disease called U.S.A.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby Free » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 22:45:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Geology_Guy', 'S')o if we should leave Iraq should we also leave Bosnia and Kosovo? At least the Serb parts of Bosnia? The Serbs do not want us there.

Thats what I can never understand about the American left-Bush wars bad, but Clinton wars good? I thought all wars were bad? Young American men also died under Clinton's orders in the Balkans.

Should the next liberal/progressive American president renounce all use of American troops overseas and bring our troops home from Korea etc ?


When was the last Serb blowing himself up and killing some US troops in a desperate attempt to get them out? The KFOR troops had to protect the Serbs in Kosovo more than the Albanians recently. Don't get apples mixed up with bananas. And you can't deny that Clinton did certainly a better job with his wars than this administration...


Yes you should retreat your business-enforcers from all over the world, if they are not there under a UN-mandate.

Yankee go home!
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby EnemyCombatant » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 23:30:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o if we should leave Iraq should we also leave Bosnia and Kosovo? At least the Serb parts of Bosnia? The Serbs do not want us there


Agreed.
Clinton was waging the dog.

I totally disagree that Clinton did a better job. Clinton is repsonsible for way more Iraqi deaths than George Bush. 500,000 children and 1 million people total. Our constant bombing of Iraq wasn't just weapon facilities, but also infrastructure.

Of course, Clinton will tell you, The price was worth it.

However, Bush is catching up quickly.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby BitterSweetCrude » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 23:38:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBean', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', '
')I'm not sure what you're suggesting as the alternative, just to leave and let SA take over? I didn't think we should have gone into Iraq, but we are where we are, and we need to choose the best option going forward. I agree completely that those who planned the rebuilding made countless mistakes (why has Rumsfeld not been fired?) I disagree that the best option going forward is to tuck tail and run. I guess we just disagree.


From any ethical utilitarian perspective the only right thing for US to do is to withdraw ASAP, pay compensations for Iraqi people for all the damage and misery you've caused and put the US (and UK) war criminals in jail.

Care for Iraqi people is not even a lame excuse for continuing occupation and control of oil and the necessary looting and killing that go with the job, it's just a sick joke that sadly still so many "innocent" Americans try to believe.

Heal thyself, "healer", stop spreading the disease called U.S.A.


If the USA is a disease, then what country is your beacon of light? China? Russia? SA, Iran, Saddam-Iraq? Columbia? North Korea? Sudan? Cuba? Mexico? Vietnam? For some reason a lot of people single out the USA as if it's the only thing in this world that is bad. I don't accept your generalization of condemning all Americans, most people in this country want to do good even if there are a lot of bad people here. But you know what, is there any country which doesn't have some bad people in it? Is there any country which doesn't have corruption is business and government? No, so it's not really a good argument to single out America for things which exist everywhere and in all governments.

But getting back on topic, my point originally was that I don't think Ms. Sheehan's idea of leaving Iraq is going to make things any better. I did not agree with going into Iraq, I think there have certainly been plenty of mistakes made, but I think she's deluding herself if she thinks that leaving Iraq is going to turn it into some peaceful oasis and make everything all better.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby BitterSweetCrude » Thu 18 Aug 2005, 23:50:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', 'h')ttp://www.drudgereport.com/flash3.htm

"We are not waging a war on terror in this country. We’re waging a war of terror. The biggest terrorist in the world is George W. Bush!"

...

"We want our country back and, if we have to impeach everybody from George Bush down to the person who picks up dog shit in Washington, we will impeach all those people."


It always bothers me when people like Ms. Sheehan call Bush "the world's biggest terrorist."

What's the rationale for bin Laden not being #1? Please explain.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby jaws » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 00:04:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', 'W')hat's the rationale for bin Laden not being #1? Please explain.
Bodycount? Destruction of property? Bush steals the show on both counts.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', 'I')f the USA is a disease, then what country is your beacon of light? China? Russia? SA, Iran, Saddam-Iraq? Columbia? North Korea? Sudan? Cuba? Mexico? Vietnam? For some reason a lot of people single out the USA as if it's the only thing in this world that is bad.
The difference? Those countries don't have any imperial pretensions and think they have the right to go fuck up someone else's country. That makes them better than the USA up front.
Last edited by jaws on Fri 19 Aug 2005, 00:06:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby Geology_Guy » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 00:04:55

Right on Bitter. As for the Kosovo war I don't think the people inside the Chinese embassy in Belgrade thought much of it. What right did America have to flatten parts of Belgrade-we did not even have UN approval. I have sympathy for Cindy's not wanting to see any more young Americans die, but to leave Iraq will not end the killing there-it will just remove it from American TV sets which is what we all want really-is it not? We Americans just want to live our peaceful lives and occasionaly donate to famine relief.

There was a great episode of South Park where yough Afghani's told the South Park kids that they hate Americans. The South Park kids said-why do you hate us? We don't hate you! Thats why we hate you Americans they said-because you don't hate us!

We are so far removed from the reality of the rest of the world (we are so rich and free) that I agree we truly don't hate anybody else-and the rest of the world hates us for it! The rest of the world hates us/wants to be us. I remember watching an interview of one of the Iranian embassy hostages. He said that as he was being walked to the waiting plane to be taken back to America one of the Iranian guards pressed a piece of paper into his hand saying-here is my address please help me get a green card!

America may not be perfect-who is?, but we are a lot better off that almost any other country.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby Z » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 00:14:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Geology_Guy', 'W')e are so far removed from the reality of the rest of the world (we are so rich and free) that I agree we truly don't hate anybody else-and the rest of the world hates us for it! The rest of the world hates us/wants to be us. I remember watching an interview of one of the Iranian embassy hostages. He said that as he was being walked to the waiting plane to be taken back to America one of the Iranian guards pressed a piece of paper into his hand saying-here is my address please help me get a green card!

America may not be perfect-who is?, but we are a lot better off that almost any other country.


Some of you people are so self-indulgent that's just laughable.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby BitterSweetCrude » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 00:21:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', 'W')hat's the rationale for bin Laden not being #1? Please explain.
Bodycount? Destruction of property? Bush steals the show on both counts.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', 'I')f the USA is a disease, then what country is your beacon of light? China? Russia? SA, Iran, Saddam-Iraq? Columbia? North Korea? Sudan? Cuba? Mexico? Vietnam? For some reason a lot of people single out the USA as if it's the only thing in this world that is bad.
The difference? Those countries don't have any imperial pretensions and think they have the right to go fuck up someone else's country. That makes them better than the USA up front.


I thought we already went down this line of reasoning, what do you say to the Soviet Union forcing communism on the world? I just don't buy the "not your business" argument because it doesn't apply in the world we live in, where all of our actions affect each other. If China is spewing pollution like a chain smoker, is it not our business to pressure them to reduce emissions? If SA makes women walk around in 7th century full body bags and treats them worse than dogs, do we just smile and nod? When someone flies planes into our buildings and a foreign government which gave him aid refuses to turn him over, do we just say its not our business? When Hitler takes Austria, do we call it "peace in our time"? Like it or not, the world is a small place and everything that goes on in the world is everyone's business, in my opinion.
Good debate.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby Free » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 00:26:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', '
')If the USA is a disease, then what country is your beacon of light? .


Well that is exactly the thing, no country on this planet is the beacon of light which has the right to tell other countries what the way to go is!

Is it so difficult to understand that it will always lead to trouble if one people thinks the sun is shining out of its ass? That there is no "chosen people"?

That is why we need an institution which tries to build an international law which is binding for every country with no exception! And whatever you can say bad about the UN, it has achieved more international cooperation in any matter than any other institution in the history of mankind before, and certainly more than pure violence.

And the only rogue state which continues to sabotage every single step of building this global framework is the US of A, plain and simple. That's why the majority of people don't like you, not because they are jealous or whatever.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby EnemyCombatant » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 00:30:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat's the rationale for bin Laden not being #1? Please explain.


First of all, the CIA asset who is in a cave on dialysis didn't mastermind 911. Get real. An event of that proportion was a black op. Not to say that terrorists weren't used in the op -- afterall the CIA is at the top of the chain of command.

Second of all, if he was the big bad wolf, how come Tommy Franks let him go.

Go figure.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby BitterSweetCrude » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 00:42:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', '
')If the USA is a disease, then what country is your beacon of light? .


Well that is exactly the thing, no country on this planet is the beacon of light which has the right to tell other countries what the way to go is!

Is it so difficult to understand that it will always lead to trouble if one people thinks the sun is shining out of its ass? That there is no "chosen people"?

That is why we need an institution which tries to build an international law which is binding for every country with no exception! And whatever you can say bad about the UN, it has achieved more international cooperation in any matter than any other institution in the history of mankind before, and certainly more than pure violence.

And the only rogue state which continues to sabotage every single step of building this global framework is the US of A, plain and simple. That's why the majority of people don't like you, not because they are jealous or whatever.


I feel that you took my quote out of context when you went down the line of reasoning of the "sun is shining" because my main point was "is there any country which doesn't have some bad people in it? Is there any country which doesn't have corruption is business and government? No, so it's not really a good argument to single out America for things which exist everywhere and in all governments." By calling the US a disease, I wanted to know if there was a country he considered to be the most opposite the US, and therefore the cure to the disease. Although I disagreed with him when he picked certain countries (China, Iran, SA, Russa, Iraq under Saddam, North Korea, etc). My main point was that its not fair to pick on the US and blame the US for everything that is bad when there are so many problems with other governments and countries in the present and throughout history.

Speaking of the UN, I agree that we need strong international law under a reformed UN. I think where a lot of people get frustrated is that the UN does nearly nothing about so many bad things in the world. Just like any government, the UN has some corruption so it's not infallible by itself. But the UN definitely needs to regain credibility, I think it has done more damange to itself through scandal and inaction, I don't agree that the US is somehow preventing the UN from doing anything.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby Z » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 00:48:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', 'I') don't agree that the US is somehow preventing the UN from doing anything.


http://personal.inet.fi/musiikki/lauri. ... vetos.html

The fact is that it is the UN that is preventing the US in doing everything it wants. And that's why you have all this propaganda in your media blasting the UN. If you're so concerned about corrupt governments, why don't you start with YOUR OWN.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby BitterSweetCrude » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 00:48:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnemyCombatant', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat's the rationale for bin Laden not being #1? Please explain.


First of all, the CIA asset who is in a cave on dialysis didn't mastermind 911. Get real. An event of that proportion was a black op. Not to say that terrorists weren't used in the op -- afterall the CIA is at the top of the chain of command.

Second of all, if he was the big bad wolf, how come Tommy Franks let him go.

Go figure.


It's interesting because I've known about bin Laden for a long time. In fact I remember him mastermining the embassy bombings and reading about him back then. I remember reading that they thought he was dying back then, and that he was planning to attack in the US.

Also I was under the impression that bin Laden had many lieutenants who helped plan the details of the attacks, so in that sense I agree that he didn't decide the details down to the flight numbers.

Do you honestly think the CIA set up the whole thing? It really doesn't add up to me (motive, who benefits?)
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