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THE Cindy Sheehan Thread (merged)

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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby Geology_Guy » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 00:51:39

Z-You make my point very well. Americans as a group just aren't interested in the rest of the world-sorry.

Sure 9-11 got us mildly interested in the rest of the world, and Iraq anoys us, but as soon as Iraqs go back to killing each other and not us we won't care any more. I don't think most Americans including Cindy S. even knew where Iraq was before this.

The only thing that might change this reality is Peak oil-we shall soon see.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby BitterSweetCrude » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 00:56:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Z', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', 'I') don't agree that the US is somehow preventing the UN from doing anything.


http://personal.inet.fi/musiikki/lauri. ... vetos.html

The fact is that it is the UN that is preventing the US in doing everything it wants. And that's why you have all this propaganda in your media blasting the UN. If you're so concerned about corrupt governments, why don't you start with YOUR OWN.


Also, can you provide a list of other countries on the security counsil who have ever used veto power in the minority?

Why is it that if the US vetos something it automatically makes it bad? I think other countries with veto power have used it much to the dismay of the US. Why single the US out?

It's interesting that I'm one of the most vocal critics of the media-government here in the US, I am very concerned about it. =) I don't think that because there are problems in my own government, that I should not be allowed to point out where I see problems in the UN and other governments too.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby jaws » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 00:56:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', 'I') thought we already went down this line of reasoning, what do you say to the Soviet Union forcing communism on the world?
I say that's bullshit. The only time that might have been true was in Afghanistan and that was to support an allied regime. Look how much good it did them too. Your argument just shows how brainwashed Americans are about their rightousness. You HAVE to intervene. You just can't help yourself. Everybody's business is your business, whether or not you understand the realities of the situation. How the fuck do you know if overthrowing Castro is a good idea? Or Ho Chi Minh? Or Allende? How the fuck do you know how islamic dress codes affects Arabian society? You don't. You can't understand the consequences of your actions because you mess with cultures and people that you don't understand to begin with. This is why Iraq is a disaster, and will continue to be a disaster until you leave.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby Free » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 01:00:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', ' ')My main point was that its not fair to pick on the US and blame the US for everything that is bad when there are so many problems with other governments and countries in the present and throughout history.
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...I don't agree that the US is somehow preventing the UN from doing anything.


Yes there was indeed some irrational picking sometimes when the US got blamed both when they intervened internationally and when they didn't.

And yes many other countries cause big problems too - but like jaws pointed out, they don't pretend that they have some "manifest destiny" and that all other countries have to do it their way, while looting the planet under this false pretension, oppressing liberation movements while proclaiming freedom and democracy, removing dictators they installed in the first place, trumpetting human rights while torturing and killing.

The point is not that the USA is worse than other countries, but that it has no right to pretend to be better or to have more rights than other countries, because that is what they do!

As for undermining the UN I think it is up to everybody to look up the facts, statements and actions which speak volumes.

But it's not only the UN the US continues to undermine, it's literally every effort to fight injustice and dangers on this planet, from banning child soldiers (US didn't sign), antipersonnel mines (US didn't sign), Kyoto protocol, the list goes on and on and on, not to talk about the international criminal court, which could have been a milestone in the history of peaceful development, where it not for the US which did blackmail many countries into signing bilateral agreements not to deliver US citizens to said court.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby BitterSweetCrude » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 01:01:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Z', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', 'I') don't agree that the US is somehow preventing the UN from doing anything.


http://personal.inet.fi/musiikki/lauri. ... vetos.html

The fact is that it is the UN that is preventing the US in doing everything it wants. And that's why you have all this propaganda in your media blasting the UN. If you're so concerned about corrupt governments, why don't you start with YOUR OWN.


I've done some looking into some of those votes, did you know that the US was not alone in many of those vetos? UK and France vetoed many of the ones in the 80s that are on that list. Where's the outrage? Or are we only allowed to be mad at the US.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/me ... tosubj.htm
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby Z » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 01:16:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', 'A')lso, can you provide a list of other countries on the security counsil who have ever used veto power in the minority?


http://globalpolicy.igc.org/security/me ... tosubj.htm

Is that so hard you can't do it yourself ?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', 'W')hy is it that if the US vetos something it automatically makes it bad?


Take a look at the veto record then.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', 'I') don't think that because there are problems in my own government, that I should not be allowed to point out where I see problems in the UN and other governments too.


It's not about you personnally. But on numerous boards you see a lot of Americans blasting the UN for various reasons, most of them being hyped by your media propaganda. It's like complaining about the Human Rights Council being crowded with dictatorships but dismissing Guantanamo and Abu Grahib.
Freedom is up to the length of the chain.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby BitterSweetCrude » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 01:21:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Z', '
')It's not about you personnally. But on numerous boards you see a lot of Americans blasting the UN for various reasons, most of them being hyped by your media propaganda. It's like complaining about the Human Rights Council being crowded with dictatorships but dismissing Guantanamo and Abu Grahib.


I think we can both agree that the US media is terrible. =) Our cable news channels here (esp FOXNEWS) are awful. Thanks for the good debate, I'm going to sleep.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby Geology_Guy » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 01:28:31

Jaws-then why the heck are we in Bosnia and Kosovo? Why don't we leave? To protect the Kosovors? Who gave us the right to intervene between them and the Serbs? Not the UN. There was no UN mandate and Russia was pretty mad at us-remember the troops they flew in?

Sure its easy to say leave Iraq because we don't understand them. After we leave they will go back to killing themselves and we won't care. The reason we cared in Bosnia and Kosovo was because it was white people getting killed. The American left really does not care if brown skinned Shia or Sunni or Kurds are dying as long as American troops are brought home. I know thats a harsh thing to say, but its true. The media especially always makes a bigger deal out of white people getting killed. As long as its brown people killing brown people they could care less. Look at all the wars going on in Africa-where are the hordes of western reporters?
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby jaws » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 01:34:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Geology_Guy', 'J')aws-then why the heck are we in Bosnia and Kosovo? Why don't we leave? To protect the Kosovors? Who gave us the right to intervene between them and the Serbs? Not the UN. There was no UN mandate and Russia was pretty mad at us-remember the troops they flew in?
My point exactly. Kosovo was probably the most succesful campaign of ethnic cleansing the US ever conducted. It's what happens when you don't follow the U.N. framework.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby Geology_Guy » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 01:55:50

Glad you agree with me. If we bring the troops home lets bring them all home.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby thor » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 03:10:27

Perhaps the US should pull its operations out of the hot spots Iraq, Kosovo, and other hell holes in this world. I'd say: people get governments and societies they deserve.

Why should anyone care when rabid Islamists butcher innocent people in Iraq? Let them have their full-blown sunni, shiite or wahhabist Islam. Why should anyone care when Serbs go on a killing spree? Just let them do their buzzing and be done with it. For future diplomacy, just let the "janjaweed" butcher entire villages in Darfur in the coming years. Ad infinitum.

Let's do frekking nothing and let despotism run its course. The world gets what it deserves.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby savethehumans » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 03:24:01

Hate to actually bring this thread back to the topic of Cindy Sheehan--but her mother has just had a stroke. Cindy's gone to find out how bad things are, and to set up care for her. However, she will be back. Another mom there told reporters to be assured that if Bush wants to talk to a mom who lost her child in Iraq, there are still plenty of those at Camp Casey. ( :evil:, but the irony is worth it!)

If you're a praying person, pray for Cindy's mom. She doesn't need to lose both a son AND a mother! If not, then HOPE for Cindy's mom!

At truthout.org, there's a SITE about Cindy's vigil, updated many times daily. Really inspiring, angering, and frustrating, but a worthy read!
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby MrBean » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 07:31:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', '
')If the USA is a disease, then what country is your beacon of light? China? Russia? SA, Iran, Saddam-Iraq? Columbia? North Korea? Sudan? Cuba? Mexico? Vietnam?


All nation's have their diseases, heck, nationalism, patriotism and militarism is the most horrible disease to begin with. And mindless consumerism and anti-democratic crony capitalism that US exports very efficiently don't certainly help.

Especially PO-wise one beacon of light is Cuba's survival after their PO, soft landing to organic farming. Other beacons of light are Zapatista's, Bolivarian revolution, World Social Forums, post-nationalistic ideology behind the creation of EU.

Proletariat of the world, unite!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')For some reason a lot of people single out the USA as if it's the only thing in this world that is bad.


USA get's mentioned because it's the topic of this discussion and because it's the US empire currently wrecking most havoc, most efficiently destroying the planet we all live on.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')I don't accept your generalization of condemning all Americans, most people in this country want to do good even if there are a lot of bad people here.


I didn't condemn all Americans, I didn't, don't and will not condemn any people, for the very reason that thinking in simplistic Hollywood terms of "good people" and "bad people" is part of the disease and certainly not cure for anything. Road to hell is paved with good intentions.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')But getting back on topic, my point originally was that I don't think Ms. Sheehan's idea of leaving Iraq is going to make things any better.


American soldiers not killing Iraqi people and not getting killed and maimed "not any better"? Ending and apologising a war of aggression against Iraqi people "not any better"?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')I did not agree with going into Iraq, I think there have certainly been plenty of mistakes made, but I think she's deluding herself if she thinks that leaving Iraq is going to turn it into some peaceful oasis and make everything all better.

Either-Or is the opposite of clear thinking and "perfect" is the worst enemy of "good". Nobody except you is speaking about "peaceful oasis" and "everything all better". Just a chance for Iraqi people to start making things relatively better themselves, after becoming free of paleo-colonialistic occupation under which there is no such possibility.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby MrBean » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 07:38:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', '
')It always bothers me when people like Ms. Sheehan call Bush "the world's biggest terrorist."

What's the rationale for bin Laden not being #1? Please explain.


Where do I begin? Fallujah and other massacres in Iraq, Haiti, Quantanamo, War against Drugs, terrorizing the whole US population with skillfull Goebbelsian propaganda and Patriot Acts...
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby MrBean » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 07:45:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', ' ')I don't agree that the US is somehow preventing the UN from doing anything.


Sigh. :(
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby MrBean » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 08:18:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', 'L')ike it or not, the world is a small place and everything that goes on in the world is everyone's business, in my opinion.
Good debate.


Agreed, very true. All people are affected by US empire - or more generally speaking, Liberal Democracy has sadly become not much more than an euphemism for global corporatocracy, which divides and rules by keeping people mentally and physically imprisoned in our fiefdoms of nation states.

It's become painfully obvious that Liberal Democracy has allready lost democratic legitimacy in the eyes of people, most of whom on some level understand that they are ruled by corrupt plutocracy and increasingly see no point in giving legitimacy for the plutocracy by voting one or another corrupt political party. As long as there's enough panem and circenses, people stay pacified, but the negative economic growth that PO means will change that. Let's hope the outcome of the collapse of liberal democracy is democratic socialism and cooperation on all levels of organisation - a soft landing; not nationalistic fascism with more competition and war - die off.
Last edited by MrBean on Fri 19 Aug 2005, 08:58:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby MrBean » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 08:57:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BitterSweetCrude', 'I') thought we already went down this line of reasoning, what do you say to the Soviet Union forcing communism on the world?
I say that's bullshit. The only time that might have been true was in Afghanistan and that was to support an allied regime. Look how much good it did them too. Your argument just shows how brainwashed Americans are about their rightousness. You HAVE to intervene. You just can't help yourself. Everybody's business is your business, whether or not you understand the realities of the situation. How the fuck do you know if overthrowing Castro is a good idea? Or Ho Chi Minh? Or Allende? How the fuck do you know how islamic dress codes affects Arabian society? You don't. You can't understand the consequences of your actions because you mess with cultures and people that you don't understand to begin with. This is why Iraq is a disaster, and will continue to be a disaster until you leave.



Well, Soviet Union did spread imperialistic stalinism (which kept some elements of socialism) by military means on many occations, 39 Baltic countries, 46-49 Central Europe, 1956 Hungary again, 1968 Checkoslovakia again etc.

But nationalistic and imperialistic stalinism is not communism, not even socialism. It's anti-Marxist.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby EnemyCombatant » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 11:37:20

Not only is her mom sick, but her husband is divorcing her.

She is in the eye of the storm.
Now why didn't I take the blue pill.
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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby Jdelagado » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 12:06:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat is why we need an institution which tries to build an international law which is binding for every country with no exception! And whatever you can say bad about the UN, it has achieved more international cooperation in any matter than any other institution in the history of mankind before, and certainly more than pure violence.

And the only rogue state which continues to sabotage every single step of building this global framework is the US of A, plain and simple. That's why the majority of people don't like you, not because they are jealous or whatever.


That's your EU, right? I could give a DAMN what europe thinks. That's why we told Britain to POUND SAND in 1776.

Who do you want leading the world? The spineless french? What a joke!

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Re: Tell it like it is, Cindy Sheehan

Unread postby gary_malcolm » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 13:07:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jdelagado', '
')
Who do you want leading the world? The spineless french? What a joke!

jdelagado


A mindless statement. Gather yourself and consider having a little humility before insulting millions of people.

The problem is not who leads the world. The problem is inherent in any power that 'leads' the world. Lead... what an odd term for massacre, profiteering, repression, slavery, ecological disaster and flagrant resource wasting.

What happens if we (the USA) pull out of Iraq as Ms. Sheehan suggests? Will we stop getting Iraqi oil? Will less, or more people die in the long run? Is this an American decision?
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There is no alternative source for our gluttony. Power down or die.
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