[Raxozanne]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('doufus', '
')That's why I'd prefer to work to build a soft landing for peak oil

[bobaloo]

I also think it's a bit of a straw-man argument. Most of the "reasonable" folks around here, meaning those that agree with me have more of a three-pronged approach. Land, gardens and livestock for sustainability, food storage to get through tough times and the means to protect those resources should it be necessary.

Yes, I've got a few AK's around the house, and a few thousand rounds of ammo, and yes, I have a year's worth of basic food for four people and still putting food away, but my main plan includes my gardens, fruit trees, livestock, chickens and friends and neighbors. With luck the food and guns won't be needed, but the same is true of health insurance and a lot of other things.

Maybe the government will try to get that opressive, but I really don't know how much luck they would have. They have a lot of ground to cover, I live in a county the size of Connecticut with less than 100,000 people in it, mostly mountains, small rural roads with one-lane bridges that could collapse at any time. It seems like it's going to cost them a lot of resources for very little in return.

In the eastern U.S. and more urban areas people will be asking for help and more willing to volunarily do what they're told in order to get a meal, but in the rural areas they're not. I think there are still a lot of members of the US armed forces who take their oath to defend the Constitution seriously and who will not participate in such a program, which could lead to the states fighting the feds.

None of us know what's going to happen, so as we say down in the Ozarks, "just hide and watch".

[holmes]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('doufus', '
')
yep, details like that really matter. I've read some of your posts and they
are wonderfully spelt and fantastically opaque.

[doufus]

While I'm not opposed to individual preps for natural disasters and a bit
beyond, i believe the loss of hope for any collective benefits/structures
is a recipe for disaster.

By pulling out mentally from participation in any larger system you
lose all of the benefits.

In essence, gross individualism guarantees die off and you will be part of
it too no matter how much you think u won't. I hope you enjoy watching your kids die for want of a 50 cent vaccine.

The knee you ruptured in the latest gunfight/ploughing session could do with some prednesoline. Nah, hobble for the rest of your life.

You want this because u think people are nasty and won't cooperate
for mutual gain? If that was the case society would be totally broken
now. and it ain't no matter how much gloom u want to shed. The odds
are someone will call an ambulance than put a round in your head and
take your shoes. The NORMS are the benefits we all accrue.

The hallmark of civil society is mutual involvement for mutual gain.

The notion that somehow the US govt will not have enough oil to
defend its own internal backyard is silly. 20-30 yrs maybe. Then again
it don't take much oil to nuke a problematic state.

Such outcomes r the end result of rampant individualism- one of the reasons the US is so stuffed in the first place. Consumption, greed and me
me me. When this is suppressed for the good of the many, we don't
have communism, we have a society.

Maybe you're right about country's "cultures". In my own country
we've never shot a politician . The pricks are not worth a bullet so
we just vote them out. But rampant individualism breeds both
oppressive governments and the nutcases who have to save us all
by taking matters into their own hands. Gross individualism has many
benefits- entrepreneurialism for one- but unchecked and it leads to
the loss of cohesion needed for good societies to work for the benefit
of all.

I've worked with many yanks and like the buggers a lot. Open, friendly
and straight up people who give a helping hand. I just don't understand
where this daniel boone mentality of guns, hate governments enough to
shoot them, me and my foxhole mentality comes from.

[doufus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobaloo', 'I') also think it's a bit of a straw-man argument. Most of the "reasonable" folks around here, meaning those that agree with me have more of a three-pronged approach. Land, gardens and livestock for sustainability, food storage to get through tough times and the means to protect those resources should it be necessary.

Yes, I've got a few AK's around the house, and a few thousand rounds of ammo, and yes, I have a year's worth of basic food for four people and still putting food away, but my main plan includes my gardens, fruit trees, livestock, chickens and friends and neighbors. With luck the food and guns won't be needed, but the same is true of health insurance and a lot of other things.

Maybe the government will try to get that opressive, but I really don't know how much luck they would have. They have a lot of ground to cover, I live in a county the size of Connecticut with less than 100,000 people in it, mostly mountains, small rural roads with one-lane bridges that could collapse at any time. It seems like it's going to cost them a lot of resources for very little in return.

In the eastern U.S. and more urban areas people will be asking for help and more willing to volunarily do what they're told in order to get a meal, but in the rural areas they're not. I think there are still a lot of members of the US armed forces who take their oath to defend the Constitution seriously and who will not participate in such a program, which could lead to the states fighting the feds.

None of us know what's going to happen, so as we say down in the Ozarks, "just hide and watch".

[doufus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('holmes', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('doufus', '
')
I agree alot with this new doufas guy. except one thing. australia isnt this utopia. the cities are resource scarce. the country is predominantly urban and resource scare compard to human biomass. the cities are overshot big. and your outback there will surely be overrun with masses after the cities dry out. please be on top of your countries ecology.
Ive studied it in the past. you are having the same overconsumption/breeding problems as every one else.

[doufus]

Actually the real issue for those making individualist preps and
mentally opting out of working for a soft PO landing is:

Where do 300 million people go in the collapse you envisage?

Do they just die in the streets?

Or do they drive, hitch, walk, crawl and slowly migrate to where YOU
live?

Does the army take them to where u live?

300 million is a lot. Not counting those in MExico or even central america
who might think the US is worth a shot. I wonder how long the fence
lasts.

300 million is a lot of corpses. And they won't die straight away cos
so many are so fat. Even Hitler could only kill 6 million and he was
really organised about it.

You really think ANY individual preps will survive this? Fair enough if
they're intended for short term disasters, but mass dislocation and
upheaval will end up in your neighbourhood no matter where u live,
no matter how remote u think u are. They WILL find u.

Praise god and pass the ammo. Good luck with it. I'd rather try to
solve the PO problem than mentally prepare how to kill children.

Better u than me mate.

As for my scene- Indonesia usually implodes. Sukharno killed 2 million and
we barely got a boat. Still, I'd rather see an outcome for us all than
be part of torpedoing a 20 ft boat full of women and kids.

Just the way I am.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('doufus', '
')I've worked with many yanks and like the buggers a lot. Open, friendly
and straight up people who give a helping hand. I just don't understand
where this daniel boone mentality of guns, hate governments enough to
shoot them, me and my foxhole mentality comes from.

[bobaloo]

doufus, just to be clear, I'm working my ass off in my community with a local peak oil / sustainability group, setting up a community garden system, demonstrating alternative energy, promoting local food production and generally trying to do everything I can to help the community as a whole deal with the coming changes.

I also think that I need to do everything I can to prepare for myself and my family so that we're not a burden and can be available to offer help to others. I live in a town of 1500 people where I probably know at least 1000 of them by name, I've been active in local government for 15 years, served on the City Council and many volunteer organizations.

Just laying that out to demonstrate that just because somebody "preps" doesn't mean that they're a kook hiding out in a cabin in the wilderness. Like I said in my first post, I see it like I see health insurance. I may not ever need any of that stuff, but if I do need it, it sure will be nice to have.

[NEOPO]

Doufus scribbled in red crayon :

"By pulling out mentally from participation in any larger system you
lose all of the benefits."

Thats exactly why we are in this mess.
For not being able to conceive of a different way with "other" benefits and maybe even without the constraints of a rat race oriented society.

I cant imagine a life without my handy dandy can-do attitude

We cant help it if you lack imagination
You speak to this forum as if you know each of us personally.
If you did know each of us personally I am sure you would not talk about us like that

Now go wrestle a croc er something will ya!! perhaps Mike has a teet available for you to suckle ........and tell Steve Erwin that Neo said hi!!

[doufus]

Bobalo,

I think what you're doing is great. I agree preping is not bad in itself.

What I'm against is those that do so having already given up hope.
That just discourages others and helps the stampede. It becomes
a self fulfilling prophecy if everyone hoards, heads for the hills and
says "every man for himself". That way lies chaos.

But the ability to keep head above water is always handy- as long
as it has a community orientation. We're all in this together is an
attitude that helps preserve the mutual benfits of social cohesion.

[doufus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'D')oufus scribbled in red crayon :

"By pulling out mentally from participation in any larger system you
lose all of the benefits."

Thats exactly why we are in this mess.
For not being able to conceive of a different way with "other" benefits and maybe even without the constraints of a rat race oriented society.

I cant imagine a life without my handy dandy can-do attitude

We cant help it if you lack imagination
You speak to this forum as if you know each of us personally.
If you did know each of us personally I am sure you would not talk about us like that

Now go wrestle a croc er something will ya!! perhaps Mike has a teet available for you to suckle ........and tell Steve Erwin that Neo said hi!!

[foodnotlawns]

Here in a broken down, former mill town in New England, I have tried to organize my NASCAR nation neighbors and got nothing but contempt. They acted like I was absolutely kooky. Sometimes they vandalize my gardens, just for the hell of it.

However, when the collapse hits, I will seek out the really responsible people -- the town government types, the local farmers, the police chiefs, the Lions Club, maybe even the Grange, and try to get them organized. But things aren't bad enough for them to listen to me . . . yet. When it is, they will, and I will have set an example.

I always do a second job, and that second job is always working for a farmer in some form. When I no longer have a "job" in the convention sense, I will work for one or another of my farmer contacts.

It's really sick how the suburbanites treat the farmers around here. They move in to a rural town and then when the farmer spreads manure on his corn field, they take him to court and try to sue him out of existence. Works a lot of the time. A doctor and a lawyer bought Mcmansions near a dairy farmer and sued the farmer becuase of the cow manure smell. A judge ruled that the dairy farmer could spread manure on his cornfield, but it had to be processed manure, like the bagged stuff you get at the feed and grain store, instead of the stuff from his cows. The farmer sold his farm to a developer and moved to Maine.

I've noticed the farmers are too nice for their own good. They'll feed so many useless eaters and then starve themselves, it seems to me.

[doufus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('foodnotlawns', 'H')ere in a broken down, former mill town in New England, I have tried to organize my NASCAR nation neighbors and got nothing but contempt. They acted like I was absolutely kooky. Sometimes they vandalize my gardens, just for the hell of it.

However, when the collapse hits, I will seek out the really responsible people -- the town government types, the local farmers, the police chiefs, the Lions Club, maybe even the Grange, and try to get them organized. But things aren't bad enough for them to listen to me . . . yet. When it is, they will, and I will have set an example.

I always do a second job, and that second job is always working for a farmer in some form. When I no longer have a "job" in the convention sense, I will work for one or another of my farmer contacts.

It's really sick how the suburbanites treat the farmers around here. They move in to a rural town and then when the farmer spreads manure on his corn field, they take him to court and try to sue him out of existence. Works a lot of the time. A doctor and a lawyer bought Mcmansions near a dairy farmer and sued the farmer becuase of the cow manure smell. A judge ruled that the dairy farmer could spread manure on his cornfield, but it had to be processed manure, like the bagged stuff you get at the feed and grain store, instead of the stuff from his cows. The farmer sold his farm to a developer and moved to Maine.

I've noticed the farmers are too nice for their own good. They'll feed so many useless eaters and then starve themselves, it seems to me.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('foodnotlawns', '
')
It's really sick how the suburbanites treat the farmers around here. They move in to a rural town and then when the farmer spreads manure on his corn field, they take him to court and try to sue him out of existence. Works a lot of the time. A doctor and a lawyer bought Mcmansions near a dairy farmer and sued the farmer becuase of the cow manure smell. A judge ruled that the dairy farmer could spread manure on his cornfield, but it had to be processed manure, like the bagged stuff you get at the feed and grain store, instead of the stuff from his cows. The farmer sold his farm to a developer and moved to Maine.

I've noticed the farmers are too nice for their own good.

[EnergySpin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('foodnotlawns', '
')
It's really sick how the suburbanites treat the farmers around here. They move in to a rural town and then when the farmer spreads manure on his corn field, they take him to court and try to sue him out of existence. Works a lot of the time. A doctor and a lawyer bought Mcmansions near a dairy farmer and sued the farmer becuase of the cow manure smell. A judge ruled that the dairy farmer could spread manure on his cornfield, but it had to be processed manure, like the bagged stuff you get at the feed and grain store, instead of the stuff from his cows. The farmer sold his farm to a developer and moved to Maine.

I've noticed the farmers are too nice for their own good.

[bobaloo]

doufus, my attitude is something like this: I have given up on the system, but I haven't given up on people. I don't think there's anything that can be done at a state or national level at this time, as the big money has the congress and legislature sewn up to continue business as usual until the water is coming over the bow. Once the boat starts to sink, it may be a different matter, with the rats fleeing and possibly leaving an opening for some truth and common sense to come into play.

On the other hand, people in small groups can be smart. I'm lucky that even though I live in a small, rural town surrounded by farms in a relatively isolated area, lots of the folks here have come here from other areas and are smart and knowledgeable. In a town of 1500 we have 40-50 who regularly show up for our meetings / dinners to discuss sustainability issues, including local farmers, city council members, business owners and others with influence in the community. What we do is once or twice a month schedule a local pizza place for the evening and someone gives a presentation or shows an informational video. We try to make it fun, it's a good opportunity to socialize and network, and folks learn something much of the time.

[doufus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobaloo', 'd')oufus, my attitude is something like this: I have given up on the system, but I haven't given up on people. I don't think there's anything that can be done at a state or national level at this time, as the big money has the congress and legislature sewn up to continue business as usual until the water is coming over the bow. Once the boat starts to sink, it may be a different matter, with the rats fleeing and possibly leaving an opening for some truth and common sense to come into play.

On the other hand, people in small groups can be smart. I'm lucky that even though I live in a small, rural town surrounded by farms in a relatively isolated area, lots of the folks here have come here from other areas and are smart and knowledgeable. In a town of 1500 we have 40-50 who regularly show up for our meetings / dinners to discuss sustainability issues, including local farmers, city council members, business owners and others with influence in the community. What we do is once or twice a month schedule a local pizza place for the evening and someone gives a presentation or shows an informational video. We try to make it fun, it's a good opportunity to socialize and network, and folks learn something much of the time.

[whiteknight]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('foodnotlawns', ' ')Here in a broken down, former mill town in New England, I have tried to organize my NASCAR nation neighbors and got nothing but contempt. They acted like I was absolutely kooky. Sometimes they vandalize my gardens, just for the hell of it.