[doufus]

{Old title: "Why Collapse Won't Happen" was inaccurate- jato}

It's laughable for growing energy shortages to lead to the collapse
of civilisation, hordes attacking armed defenders of food caches,
mass die-off and the rest of the D grade sci-fi fantasies.

The people wanting to "bring it on" in this scenario are as clueless
about the horrific realities of social breakdown as they are stupidly optimistic
about their ability to survive the "survival of the fittest" game. In such
scenarios god help them if they acquire the simplest of medical issues like
an infected wound, appendicitis or even adult onset asthma.

IF, IF, IF PO takes hold the more likely scenario is the most historically
common- MASSIVE social and economic redesign under marshall law.
That is, massive reallocation of energy priorities, forcably MOVING people to places of industry, nationalisation of all major assetts including homes
and land in order to forcibly optimise the economy for food production and
manufacturing of crucial goods.

Marshall law is always about sacrificing the wants of the few for the
needs of the many.

People now preparing their 100 acres may have a few city families turn
up with the national guard. These are your new, big happy family and
the 20mm cannon on the APC says so. You and your survivalist morons
gonna argue? Go right ahead.

Energy wastage in any form is an instant capital offense. Everything
becomes local- school, work, consumption etc.

Rationing is TOTAL. Blackmarketing demands summary execution.

Now some people would say that this IS the end of civilisation. Not true.
It's the end of the fairy land of infinite consumption but it's a lot
better than the alternatives.

Obviously the doomer, survivalist nuts with their M-16s and MREs will
hide until their MREs run out and being incapable of actually surviving
in an environment that's a shadow of what it was in Daniel Boone's day,
they will eventually come out of the hills and join the work queue.

Everything in their lair will be confiscated for common use and all
those years of paranoia and preps will be for nothing.

Maybe it would be better to work NOW for a future without these
features?

[Jack]

What an interesting presentation of the optimistic case!

Thank you for your perspectives.

[something_awfull]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'W')hat an interesting presentation of the optimistic case!

Thank you for your perspectives.

[jato]

You just described a collapse situation....yet your post title states "Why Collapse Won't Happen"... I am confused.

[gt1370a]

Yeah, that sounds like a collapse to me.

By the way, the Washington Post recently reported that the Pentagon has drafted plans for martial law.

Of course they don't call it that, but when the military does crowd control and disaster management, that is the definition of martial law. FEMA and local police normally do it.

[dub_scratch]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jato', 'Y')ou just described a collapse situation....yet your post title states "Why Collapse Won't Happen"... I am confused.

[Schweinshaxe]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('something_awfull', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'W')hat an interesting presentation of the optimistic case!

Thank you for your perspectives.

[Ludi]

I'd feel more confident of your predictions if you were able to spell "martial" correctly.

[meekoil]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schweinshaxe', 'Y')up, you're right. The world after PO will NOT be one of the following:

1. A green, ecological dream society where everyone runs naked hand in hand through fields full of flowers and where lions and deer bask in the sunshine together.

2. A Mad Max hell full of zombies with assault rifles trying to steal your last potato.

The post PO society will be a society full of corrupt politicians. A world of bureaucracy, political correctness and political indoctrination. This is the kind of world which is already getting closer and closer. Collectivistic oppression when it comes from the right is called fascism, collectivistic oppression when it comes from the left is called socialism. Different names, same shit.

[doufus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')'d feel more confident of your predictions if you were able to spell "martial" correctly.

[doufus]

"Give me the Mad Max world instead. At least that would be fun while it lasted."

Why wait. Plenty of places can give you mad max right now!

Get yer cammies on, lock n load and go out right now.

My bet is you'll run.

[Schweinshaxe]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')'d feel more confident of your predictions if you were able to spell "martial" correctly.

[gego]

My take is the originator of this thread sees some sort of collapse, else he would not have his fantacy of how it develops.

I say his description of the competing fantacies is between those who advocate freedom and self reliance (the survivalists) against those who advocate collective control and theft from producers for the benefit of the collective (the plunderers).

Really government has always been a form of taking by force from those who produce to give to those who do not, principally the power elite (kings, princes, and all sorts of modern day equivalents) so the idea of how society will be is just a rehash of the majority of history.

While there will be plenty of plunder in the future in a breakdown situation, I doubt that the leaders of the collective will do much more than plunder for their own benefit, so doufus will probably still do without, in spite of his fantacy that the big mama/papa government will take care of him by stealing from producers.

My bet is that doufus is totally dependent upon the system, hence he is opposed to those who would take matters in their own hands, and actually produce their own food and defend themselves against the agression of others.

[EnergySpin]

You guys are so IGNORANT. :
Modern teenagers know of only one Marshall Law
Done deal ...
For the record the socialist/collective future is the one likely to happen.
People will have their ecovillages and their organic farming but it will be centrally planned and managed. Total recycling will be the rule (Lundberg has advocated burrying the dead humans with reverence deep in our gardens) so both eco-utopians and technocratists like myself will not complain. People will be given the freedom to either serve as fertilizers or be thermally depolymerized to serve as plastic feedstock (yes I will come back as a computer!!!!). Courtesy of genetic engineering there will be plenty of new species to populate the gardens and provide manure.
Mad Max people will either be executed or hired as guards.
I kind of like this future ...

[jato]

I think you are right gego. I am going to change the title of this thread...it is misleading.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('something_awfull', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'W')hat an interesting presentation of the optimistic case!

Thank you for your perspectives.

[Kylon]

It would seem the logical thing to do then, would be to try and hide all of your resources as best as possible. Don't let the government know what you have, hide what you've got. I do not mean tax evasion for that would be illegal, and I am in no way supporting or giving my consent to tax evasion, I am strongly against tax evasion and all related crimes. I mean like resources you buy and what not.

Also, if this is the case, it may just be best to move to Canada(assuming your in the United States), or some South American country. They will probably want to keep their citizens trapped in the United States so they can use them for forced labor. Population density in Canada is much lower, therefore you'll probably have more land per person, and thus higher yields of food. Also land up there I think is cheaper, and far more remote, from cities, which is where everyone will migrate from, under this scenario.

When/If things get draconian, nobody will weep if you starve, or if they have to make you starve so they can be fat and happy.

Also, in a draconian society, a government official may take a liking to your wife/girlfriend/lover and decide to imprison you, for some real or made up crime, rape her, then either leave her(and there probably won't be any contraceptives available to middle class citizens, so she might get pregnant), or to cover his tracks, have her imprisoned as well, in some sort of concentration camp, where she will die, and the truth will die with her.

Dictatorships are no fun, anarchy is much better. At least with anarchy you have a chance of not getting screwed. Dictatorships there is a 100%.

[doufus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', 'M')y take is the originator of this thread sees some sort of collapse, else he would not have his fantacy of how it develops.

I say his description of the competing fantacies is between those who advocate freedom and self reliance (the survivalists) against those who advocate collective control and theft from producers for the benefit of the collective (the plunderers).

Really government has always been a form of taking by force from those who produce to give to those who do not, principally the power elite (kings, princes, and all sorts of modern day equivalents) so the idea of how society will be is just a rehash of the majority of history.

While there will be plenty of plunder in the future in a breakdown situation, I doubt that the leaders of the collective will do much more than plunder for their own benefit, so doufus will probably still do without, in spite of his fantacy that the big mama/papa government will take care of him by stealing from producers.

My bet is that doufus is totally dependent upon the system, hence he is opposed to those who would take matters in their own hands, and actually produce their own food and defend themselves against the agression of others.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('doufus', '
')
yep, details like that really matter. I've read some of your posts and they
are wonderfully spelt and fantastically opaque.

[dissimulo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('doufus', '
')That's why I'd prefer to work to build a soft landing for peak oil rather
than polish a .308 hunting rifle and calculate how many rounds I need
for another 20 years. It's pathetic.