[Aedo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Berkeley', '[')url=http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8209-1614067,00.html]This[/url] sounds like a big deal, if it's half for real (no platinum???). Why isn't it being noticed on the peak oil news? What's the catch?

[Vexed]

From the Aug 14th article:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he boiler, which should take a year to design, uses "combined heat and power" technology.

[Aedo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Vexed', 'F')rom the Aug 14th article:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he boiler, which should take a year to design, uses "combined heat and power" technology.

[nth]

This might be a breakthrough, but it is not available now.
It should be worthy to keep an eye out on how they progress.

If PO is what Campbell predicted, then they might be a little late, but better late than never.

[gnm]

I suppose we could move this but its a bit of a rant....

WHY WHY WHY WHY is all this money being dumped into (fool cell) fuel cell auto research rather than just rolling out electric cars with existing modern technology?! As far as I can see there is no advantage in a fuel cell car vs a modern electric. They are even using high power AC for drive now. And hybrids seem pointless. The complexity alone should make a buyer wary...

And now you have all these people re-engineering prius's and driving around at 35mph so they can brag how high thier mileage is.

news flash! electric car uses less gas!
link
idiots.

-G

[HaleaKalea]

re ceres fuel cells.

The problem here is cost, not technology.
It seems fuelcells are by nature some sort of rocket science at least
for now.

What is the cost per kw and how many kw does it put out?

As we know, fuelcells put out DC and there has to be an inverter to get 60hz AC for conn to the household supply. All of this has been done before and marketed by other companies as a package.

It sounds good, and no doubt the future lies in this technology,
it is just not quite ready yet at human level prices.

Not to mention the rising prices and impending shortages of natural gas.

We will just have to wait a see a bit longer yet

HaleaKalea 05-08-15

[The_Virginian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd hybrids seem pointless. The complexity alone should make a buyer wary...

[gnm]

Actually light electric rail would be a better solution by far...

But you misunderstand me - I wasn't debating that there would be a problem generating all that electricity, or anything else for that matter (like continuing suburbia) - but rather only that exisiting electric tech can match presumed performance of fuel cell cars. Most fuel cell vehicle tech is now focused on "Reforming" hydrogen from nat gas or even gasoline to make a "zero" emission vehicle. But it still runs on fossil fuel.

even electric motors wear out so no problem for the auto companies there...

I am all for nuke plants. better start building em now!

-G

[The_Toecutter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'e')ven electric motors wear out so no problem for the auto companies there..

[mgibbons19]

Funny thing about Americans. If a cost effective, viable solution to a problem exists, they will ignore it for an enormously complex, soon(maybe never) to be developed technological solution which inevtiable brings up more problems than it solves.

Seeing as this energy crisis should present itself as a liquid-fuels-for-tranportation crisis first, we could easily deal with the initial effects with walkable neighborhoods, decent electric mass transit, decent rail, and your little electric cars.

But wait, all those technologies have been developed for 50-100 years (walkable cities for 1000yrs), all of them are understandable and servicable to the average citizen. So we can't use them.

Someone will invent a Disney monorail, a hydrogen delivery infrastructure, 50k personal vehicles, and computer controlled freeways where the vehicles all blue-tooth one another so their onboard computers can synch traffic more safely. We got nothing to worry about. THEY are working on it.

Yeah right. I'll stick to my half mile commute and my bike.

[FoxV]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', 'T')herefore, the 'capitalists' stay as far away from them as possible.

[Aedo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HaleaKalea', 'r')e ceres fuel cells.

The problem here is cost, not technology.
It seems fuelcells are by nature some sort of rocket science at least
for now.

[The_Toecutter]

Short range is no longer a problem for EVs. The batteries have evolved.


The NiMH(Nickel Metal Hydride) battery allowed for 150-200 mile cruising ranges at 60-70 mph speeds. It could also be fast charged, although cooling was an issue.

In production volume for 20,000 cars per year, ECD chairman Robert Stemple quoted the price at $150/kWh, or basically $4,500 for a 30 kWh battery pack that would give an electrric car 150+ miles range. This battery is quoted at 1,750 cycles to full discharge, or with 150 miles range, a life in excess of 250,000 miles for the battery pack(Obviously not many drive 150 miles on every trip, and shallower discharges will greatly extend the life).

The patent for the Ovonic NiMH battery was bought out by Chevron Texaco who refuses to offer it at an affordable price. This is one of the reasons hybrids have such a high price premium; the Prius has on board about 1.5 kWh of this NiMH battery, but per kWh, Chevron Texaco is charging in excess of $1,200.


Further, lithium ion batteries would go down to $200-250/kWh if they were produced in volume for tens of thousands of cars and specifically tailored to them. But the big automakers refuse to mass produce EVs, and thus the batteries remain prohibitively expensive at about $450/kWh.

A 50 kWh lithium ion battery pack for 250-300 miles range would thus go for $10k-$12.5k in mass production today, and would decrease in the future or if all automakers produced EVs. A $20-25k EV with 250+ miles range and sports car performance capable of seating 4 is not out of the question.

[whiteknight]

Fuel Cell vs. Battery.

First off, both are electric. A fuel cell produces electricity as well as water (and some CO2 if you use Methane, Propane or other such gases). So they both turn electric motors, they both accelerate and decelerate with the same systems, they are botrh likely the same basic weight, the H2 tank is likely to be as heavy as the batteries. So on and so forth.

Differances? Well the first one I see is recharge. Recharging a battery takes a bit of time no matter the type. Especialy if you want a good solid charge that can last a while. Filling a pressurized cylinder with gas is much quicker. So for logistics the fuel cell has a slight advantage over the electirc. Most gas stations could put a large propane like tank behind the building easily enoguh and they are already set up to dispence prodcut by the volume.

Also a well made fuel cell can handle other gases, Methane, Propane, and all those hydrocarbon gases can be processed happily by many fuel cells. There is some CO2 produced, but far less than a infernal combustion engine will pump out per mile. This gives the owner a bit more flexability in the fueling of his vehicle. If they dont have H2 he could ge tby with C2H5 or CH3 without ill effects.

Now I know H2 is mostly made from hiddeycarbons, but so is most of the electricity today. If we make a massive switch to solar then why not electrolisize (sp?) the H2 from water with those same panels? In the long run it's still six of one a half dozen of the other. The shorter "recharge" time of the feul cell as well as logistical flexability seems to sell it over batteries in my book.

Now, cry havok and let slip the flamethrowers of war!

[The_Virginian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he patent for the Ovonic NiMH battery was bought out by Chevron Texaco who refuses to offer it at an affordable price. This is one of the reasons hybrids have such a high price premium; the Prius has on board about 1.5 kWh of this NiMH battery, but per kWh, Chevron Texaco is charging in excess of $1,200.

[The_Toecutter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')uel Cell vs. Battery.

First off, both are electric.

[Licho]

Well imagine the huge line of people all sitting 20 minutes at gas station waiting to recharge their batteries every 150-250km

Chance to charge it at home is also very bleak for most people .. only very tiny % of people have own garage and even less have powerfull enough amperage to charge decent battery in less than a week

The best would be to standardize it and make it as a changeable module - they would simply switch your battery for the same type but already charged - within few seconds..

[pilferage]

They need something to sell after oil becomes prohibitively expensive. Simple as that.

P.s. Should I ride around on my bicycle and brag about getting over 1000mpg!

[gnm]

Thats simply not true Licho, your average household in the US has 60-200 Amp mains at 240V. A battery charger run from the 120 side alone could charge the whole 3Kwh system in an hour or two... The rate of charge would depend on the battery type etc. I recently bought a couple of 212Ah @12V AGM batteries (sealed lead acid) which can take an 8x charge rate. Thats like 50Amps@ 120V. That compares favorably with Li-ion.

I agree that a removable pack would be an interesting proposition but those suckers would be HEAVY.

-G

[Licho]

Omg 200 amps at 240V?? I have 10A (@ 220V) fuse in my flat! And it's enough for everything (lighting is seperate).. well ok, microwave + electric kettle + all my computers can cause troubles, considering I have only 2200W avail, and I'm heading for upgrade, but 200A seems extremely huge to me, do you have 5cm thick cables to handle it inside walls too?
(It's really huge unless you need to heat whole house with electricity or something like that)

And is 3kWh system usefull? I mean your car has what, 50kW power? Or much more if it's SUV? You can assume that reasonably powerfull car (can run uphill with cargo) needs some 20-30kW ...
And with 3kWh battery thats about 6 minutes of power

I believe that you can charge 3kWh battery in hour or two, I calculated with some 10-20 amps as maximum current you can drawn from your grid. But decent cars will need to have much more powerfull batteries..

And yes, heavy too, no way people could change it with bare hands