[DriveElectric]

{Thread condensed and cleaned up by Tyler_JC. The flame war went tohttp://www.peakoil.com/fortopic8196.html. The tree farm stuff went to http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic8195.html}

It looks like there are still advances being made in fuel cells. Maybe we should reconsider the potential for fuel cells in the future. Most members of PO.com (including me) typically have written off fuel cells as not feasible. Perhaps they actually do have a place in the energy mix of the future.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/05/20/fuel ... index.html

Company claims fuel cell advance
Friday, May 20, 2005 Posted: 7:34 AM EDT (1134 GMT)

LONDON, England (Reuters) -- A small British technology company has claimed it is on the verge of unlocking the vast potential of fuel cells as a commercially viable source of green energy.

Cambridge-based CMR Fuel Cells said it had made a breakthrough with a new design of fuel cell that is a 10th of the size of existing models and small enough to replace conventional batteries in laptop computers.

"We firmly believe CMR technology is the equivalent of the jump from transistors to integrated circuits," said John Halfpenny, the firm's chief executive.

CMR said the new design would run for four times longer than conventional batteries in a laptop or other devices like power tools.

Evans said the design, which would run initially on methanol, was based on new type of fuel stack which mixed air and fuel. Up to now fuel stacks have relied on complete separation of the two.

(click on link for the rest of the article)

[big_rc]

Fuel cells are wonderful things and this breakthrough will probably make the people who designed it alot of money if it works as well as planned but this will not rescue us by any means from the effects of peak oil. Think of small fuel cells (like this one) as battery replacement devices. For a number of reasons, (primarily economic), it makes very good sense to replace that cumbersome battery in your laptop and cell phone with a methanol fuel cell right now. Now when you talk about replacing an internal combustion engine with one of these, that is not going to happen for a very long time.

[DriveElectric]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('big_rc', ' ') Now when you talk about replacing an internal combustion engine with one of these, that is not going to happen for a very long time.

[BiGG]

I just don’t see how anybody can not be excited by fuel cells as they are our future and here already!

Ceres Power just patented a fuel cell that does not need platinum and can run on hydrogen!



General Motors "Reinventing the Automobile with Fuel Cell Technology"

GM has made great strides in solving many of the challenges inherent in fuel cell technology, including the tendency to freeze and stop working in cold weather. The GM fuel cell's freeze start-up time has decreased to less than 15 seconds for 100% power at minus 20 degrees Celsius.

With its historic expertise in manufacturing and engineering, GM has taken a leadership position in fuel cell technology, systems, controls and gasoline/natural gas hydrogen fuel reforming.

GM's prototype stationary fuel cell unit already generates power for GM's New York fuel cell development facility.

In only two years, the power density of GM's fuel cell stack technology has increased tenfold, while costs have decreased proportionately.

GM's revolutionary fuel cell vehicle, Hy-wire, has no internal combustion engine, instrument panel, brake or accelerator pedals — but it does have ample power supplied by a GM fuel cell that runs on hydrogen.



General Motors Fuel Cell Marathon across Europe

General Motors large scale power plants already running.

Honda is already building these and the link shows them being tested in cities already.





Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Lots of pictures & information here.

[EddieB]

My brother-in-law to be is currently working on his PhD in chemical catalysis, specifically related to fuel cells. He says there are still major hurdles to overcome before they will be a commercially viable technology. Not only is platnum limiting (sorry BiGG, I gotta go with his take on the platnum issue since he works with it all the time), but also there are major problems with membrane contamination (the site of the reaction between H2 and O2 or CH3OH and O2). Fuels must be made EXTREMELY clean in order for the cells to run for any length of time. Really really clean fuels have low EROEI because of extra distillations/refining. They're at least 20 years from being really viable, and that assumes some of the hurdles can be overcome...

[DriveElectric]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EddieB', ' ')but also there are major problems with membrane contamination (the site of the reaction between H2 and O2 or CH3OH and O2). Fuels must be made EXTREMELY clean in order for the cells to run for any length of time. Really really clean fuels have low EROEI because of extra distillations/refining. They're at least 20 years from being really viable, and that assumes some of the hurdles can be overcome...

[BiGG]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EddieB', 'M')y brother-in-law to be is currently working on his PhD in chemical catalysis, specifically related to fuel cells. He says there are still major hurdles to overcome before they will be a commercially viable technology. Not only is platnum limiting (sorry BiGG, I gotta go with his take on the platnum issue since he works with it all the time)....

[big_rc]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DriveElectric', '
')
I think you missed the point. This is not about replacing the internal combustion engine and going forward as if there is no problem. This was an article about fuel cell technology making some key steps forward in size reduction and fuel stack design.

[big_rc]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BiGG', '
')No offence intended towards your brother but what does he know about Ceres Power and their technology being a student? Does he have any knowledge regarding this company? They clearly say they have a working model not requiring platinum and recently hosted a delegation from around the world showing it off!

[Devil]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BiGG', '[')b]I just don’t see how anybody can not be excited by fuel cells as they are our future and here already!

[BiGG]

Devil,

Ummm sweetie? Isn’t it interesting all those here with these alleged giant brains keep posting the most ridiculous ignorant crap that little ol’ me has debunked with facts repeatedly! Did you notice how many supposedly knowledgeable people were claiming Ethanol is a net energy loser right here alone yesterday and how my little brain humiliated them with facts showing otherwise? Did you also notice at least two points regarding fuel cells in this thread that you self-proclaimed experts had zero clue about no matter how many times you debated it in the past?

And your ridiculous list of warnings above can be found on many existing products like how about you produce a list of similar warnings for even very old products like maybe ether, gasoline, & battery acid!

You sit around with your list of self-proclaimed experts and debate things like the merits of horses over the horseless carriage all you want, but don’t mind those of us discussing the merits of cutting edge carriages, especially when we keep showing your thinking to be as antiquated as Greek mythology.

[Devil]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BiGG', '
')And your ridiculous list of warnings above can be found on many existing products like how about you produce a list of similar warnings for even very old products like maybe ether, gasoline, & battery acid!

[BiGG]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Devil', '
')
Ah! My sincere apologies to you as an expert in toxicology and epidemiology. The post-grad course I took in industrial toxicology at the University of Neuchâtel in Switzerland, in conjunction with the Swiss Federal Office of Public Health, obviously counts for nothing compared with your superior knowledge, which is clearly better than that of the J.T. Baker company, a leading supplier of analytical chemicals whom you qualify as "ridiculous".

I grovel before your outstanding awareness of the metabolic processes which equate methanol with ether, gasoline and battery acid.

[0mar]

BiGG, what exactly is your background?

Methanol is derived from methane or crude oil. Hydrogen is derived primarily from coal/methane/oil in one way or another.

You probably scoff at plutonium's warning labels too.

[MonteQuest]

Ya know, BiGG, I thought it was just me, but after seeing you try to trash Devil, (one of our most knowledgeable and reasoned members) I'll have it on record that you display the epitome of gross ignorance, and are just nothing short of a fool. Talk about burning every bridge of credibility.

I think you believe everything you read that supports your agenda and parrot it as fact. You don't seem to like having your feet held to the fire. Maybe one day you will enter into the realm of acceptable scientific criteria, for it seems you have your own "proof" meter and I think it needs a new battery or calibration.

[Raxozanne]

From my own *joe public* perspective I think these fuel cells are a good idea but household electricity generation is only one thing.
What about transportation, what about factories? What about farming?
Would these be able to be applied there too? We will just have to wait and see. But if these are supplied from biomass then I think their application will be limited. Plus millions of them would have to be manufactured.

[big_rc]

OK everyone here has gotten completely off topic. This methanol fuel cell is a small fuel cell which is designed to power small stuff like laptops and cell phones. That's all folks. This small fuel cell will not be used for medium to large scale electrical generation and definetly not for transportation. There is nothing earth shaking here folks so let's all get along.

[Tyler_JC]

Stock Chart for Ceres Power

Do you mean to tell me that Ceres Power (the company that is about to save the world) can't impress it's share holders? It's stock has fallen by more than 20% since it was first issued. This shows a lack of confidence in its ability to make a profit (which it has yet to do, btw). If Ceres Power had the ability to make cheap useful fuel cells, the wealthy/educated/informed investor would jump at the chance to own a piece of the action, right? RIGHT???

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '[')url=http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=CWR.L&t=6m]Stock Chart for Ceres Power[/url]

Do you mean to tell me that Ceres Power (the company that is about to save the world) can't impress it's share holders? It's stock has fallen by more than 20% since it was first issued. This shows a lack of confidence in its ability to make a profit (which it has yet to do, btw). If Ceres Power had the ability to make cheap useful fuel cells, the wealthy/educated/informed investor would jump at the chance to own a piece of the action, right? RIGHT???

[Cyrus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ine Critical Questions to Ask About Alternative Energy
Quote:
May 27, 2003, 1400 PDT (FTW) -- Before we instantly accept alternative energy lifeboats that will let us keep our current lifestyles, don't you think it wise to see if they float?

Here are nine questions that you must ask of yourself, and anyone who claims that they have found a perfect alternative to oil. After answering these questions, you may have a better idea about whether you want to jump (or throw your family) into something that might sink in short order.

Deluding yourself that the energy problem has been solved only guarantees that the crisis will hit you and the planet much harder in the end.

The end of the Age of Oil is a life and death game. Can you afford to be cavalier about it? Do not think of prudent, but ultimately temporary, steps that should be taken to soften the blow as solutions.

These questions have been arranged by order of importance and by the order in which they will enable you to quickly evaluate an alternative energy source. If you can't get the right answer to the first one, you need not go any further.

After answering all nine questions, you will see - from a scientific place, rather than an emotional one - that there is no effective replacement for what hydrocarbon energy provides today.

Quote:
Any alternative energy source claiming to be a solution to the coming oil and gas shortages must have documented “open book” EROEI policies. If it doesn't, then it has something to hide.


Link to the 9 questions

http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic8127.html