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The Martial Law Thread (merged)

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The Martial Law Thread (merged)

Unread postby NevadaGhosts » Thu 02 Sep 2004, 17:28:38

US already preparing for martial law after peak oil?
Here's a interesting article (regarding martial law in the US) I found through Matt's website: link
Looks like presidential executive orders could disolve the Constitution instantly. Pretty scary.
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Unread postby jato » Thu 02 Sep 2004, 18:04:46

This interests me since I work for the executive branch of local government.
In a long term SHTF or TEOTWAWKI (the end of the world as we know it, NOT a local disaster like 9/11) I think most local/state Peace Officers will not abide by any "extreme" executive orders. I am not sure, but when it gets bad, most of them will not report to work. I can see myself still working in my area because it is mostly rural. If they tried to deploy me to Los Angeles for "mutual aid" or anywhere that is too far from my family, I would have to cut out.

I took an oath to uphold the constitution, not to follow a dictatorship! Regardless, my family is way more important than my job. I realize some peace officers will follow the orders, most of them will be the young, scared, immature and inexperienced types without families.
Maybe more later... I gotta go.
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Re: US already preparing for martial law after peak oil?

Unread postby JayHMorrison » Thu 02 Sep 2004, 19:58:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NevadaGhosts', 'L')ooks like presidential executive orders could disolve the Constitution instantly. Pretty scary.

Any president who tried to do it would tank in the polls quickly. That makes an impeachment much more likely. The Congress is not going to stick by a President with approval rating at 10% or lower.
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Unread postby Specop_007 » Thu 02 Sep 2004, 22:08:25

Doubtful. In order to have effective martial law in end of civilization times you need a society thats largely disarmed. The passing of the AWB is a good sign the government doesnt want, or hasnt thought about, martial law.
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Unread postby jato » Fri 03 Sep 2004, 00:05:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he passing of the AWB
I think after the elections (even if Bush wins) we will see another, more restrictive gun ban. It just might take a year or two before it happens. Otherwise, I think you are right.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ny president who tried to do it would tank in the polls quickly. That makes an impeachment much more likely. The Congress is not going to stick by a President with approval rating at 10% or lower.

If the constitution were to be "dissolved", there would likely be a power grab/dictatorship and our old system of government (Congress/House of Reps, Supreme Court, elections, etc.) will cease to exist. I only see this happening late in the game when we are all but out of fossil fuel and people are already dieing off.
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Unread postby jato » Fri 03 Sep 2004, 00:07:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n order to have effective martial law in end of civilization times you need a society thats largely disarmed.
I agree. However, nothing would prevent the government from trying to gain control.
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Unread postby JayHMorrison » Fri 03 Sep 2004, 01:25:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jato', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n order to have effective martial law in end of civilization times you need a society thats largely disarmed.
I agree. However, nothing would prevent the government from trying to gain control.

You really have no effective understanding of either political reality or rational thought. Seriously. Step back from the internet conspiracy ledge. You are about to fall over.
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Unread postby JayHMorrison » Fri 03 Sep 2004, 01:32:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jato', 'I')f the constitution were to be "dissolved", there would likely be a power grab/dictatorship and our old system of government (Congress/House of Reps, Supreme Court, elections, etc.) will cease to exist. I only see this happening late in the game when we are all but out of fossil fuel and people are already dieing off.
There is only that silly little thing we have called "Checks and Balances". The president is not a king with absolute authority. Only Congress can tax and spend. Without a willing Congress, a President cannot get much accomplished. The Supreme Court is the only body who can determine what the Constitution means. If the President were to start ignoring Congress and the Supreme Court, he would be out just like Richard Nixon.

If you only envision that when we are out of fossil fuels, then in effect you are predicting something 30 to 50 years in the future. Kinda silly to go so far out on a limb.
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Unread postby jato » Fri 03 Sep 2004, 01:42:29

Jay, So what you are saying is throughout history governments have never gone through drastic changes? I didn't say it was going to happen. I said it could happen...after TSHTF.

I do not believe in conspiracies. I do believe all empires at some point will collapse. I think Peak Oil will eventually (I don't know when) cause the USA to collapse or undergo radical government changes? Why is that so hard to understand?
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Unread postby jato » Fri 03 Sep 2004, 01:50:34

Additionally I was responding to Nevada who started this thread.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')ooks like presidential executive orders could disolve the Constitution instantly. Pretty scary.

Jay you need to understand power does not come from a piece of paper. It comes from the barrel of a gun (I am using metaphors). Power also takes other forms. I hope you get my point. I am not predicting anything on this thread. I am only exploring possibilities.
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Unread postby dmtu » Fri 03 Sep 2004, 02:30:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', 'T')here is only that silly little thing we have called "Checks and Balances". The president is not a king with absolute authority. Only Congress can tax and spend. Without a willing Congress, a President cannot get much accomplished. The Supreme Court is the only body who can determine what the Constitution means. If the President were to start ignoring Congress and the Supreme Court, he would be out just like Richard Nixon.
If you only envision that when we are out of fossil fuels, then in effect you are predicting something 30 to 50 years in the future. Kinda silly to go so far out on a limb.

While I'm not on the conspiracy bandwagon the Civil War might be a good case to study. The southern secession may or may not have been completely Constitutionally legal. I suppose it depends on how the victorious side decided to write history. There are some, especially older folks, in the South who still think President Lincoln should have been strung up in a magnolia. On the other hand, if both sides had the internet in 1861 maybe none of that would have happened.
On further thought I suppose you could say that was all about energy too.

Lastly, as I have posted before, lands which are mined are typically leased from the government. Coal and, I would assume oil leases can be recalled by the the government if it is felt that the resource is not being exploited properly (coal mines suffer this threat even today) so I would assume that they might be ignorant enough in an energy crunch to confiscate operation of key coal properties if it should come to that. Anybody know for sure if federal leases apply to oil?
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Unread postby rallyman » Fri 03 Sep 2004, 06:09:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NevadaGhosts', 'L')ooks like presidential executive orders could disolve the Constitution instantly. Pretty scary.
Any president who tried to do it would tank in the polls quickly. That makes an impeachment much more likely. The Congress is not going to stick by a President with approval rating at 10% or lower.

Uhh....so who says that congress won't stick by a president with 10% or lower? Could you please show me where "approval ratings" and tanking in the polls determines whether a president is impeached or not? Now don't go pull something from "some dark place" and say...."Richard Nixon's approval rating went below 10% and thats why impeachment proceedingw were started...." 'cuz I think it might have been something a bit more than that....or atleast more "important". I'd like to see something in the government code or US code that says.... 18USC 459.7 "When the presidents approval ratings and gallup poll ratings fall below 15% then congress will have the discretion,right and duty to initiate impeachment proceedings." (the proceeding was for example purposes only....... :razz:

Do not ever underestimate the government, any government. they will pull the strangest things from the "darkest places." Is the government planning for martial law? Maybe. Would 'they' try it if the time was right and 'they' thought they could get away with it and it would ensure the continued survival and viability of the government? Certainly. Does FEMA have 'concentration' or detention camps readied? I don't know, and hope I never find out. Would I be surprised to find out if any of the above were even remotely true? No. Tinfoil hat replaced :wink:
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9 out of 10 voices in my head told me to stay home and clean my guns today.
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Re: US already preparing for martial law after peak oil?

Unread postby Licho » Fri 03 Sep 2004, 06:13:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NevadaGhosts', 'L')ooks like presidential executive orders could disolve the Constitution instantly. Pretty scary.
Any president who tried to do it would tank in the polls quickly. That makes an impeachment much more likely. The Congress is not going to stick by a President with approval rating at 10% or lower.
Well, if one can disolve consitution, that means, he can completely change the basic laws, disolving congress and polls as well.. There is no congress or polls without constitution.. there are no "rules" without it..
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Unread postby PhilBiker » Fri 03 Sep 2004, 09:35:38

Anybody other than me take 10 minutes to google search some of the key phrases in that article? Pretty far-fetched stuff (to put it lightly).Most of the web sites that come up on a google search have one or two variations of the the same fear mongering paranoid text regarding this 'plan'. Some others are interesting. This in particular: link
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Unread postby Soft_Landing » Fri 03 Sep 2004, 11:33:55

Thanks for that Phil. I followed up the Rex84 link and found this: link
This is a book chapter by a guy called Thomas Sheehan, who is Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at Loyola and Professor of Religious Studies at Stanford. He doesn't normally write about this sort of stuff, but he writes a lot about Heidegger, which count for lots in my book when you are looking for a courageous thinker... Anyway, I'll snip below the part that is relevant to the Rex84 material, which begins on page 18: <snip> In one sense such a photo album is truly funny. But one might remember that this was the time when Lt. Col. Oliver North of the National Security Council was secretly working with FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, to draw up contingency plans to spy on political dissenters and even, as Ross Gelbspan of the Boston Globe has pointed out, $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')o arrange for the detention of hundreds of thousands of undocumented aliens in case of an unspecified national emergency. The plan, part of which was code-named Rex 84, called for the suspension of the Constitution under a number of scenarios, including a U.S. invasion of Nicaragua.
The story exposing these contingency plans broke in the Miami Herald on July 5, 1987.

According to the article, Lt. Col Oliver North $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'h')elped draw up a controversial plan to suspend the Constitution in the event of a national crisis, such as nuclear war, violent and widespread internal dissent or national opposition to a U.S. military invasion abroad.
The overall program included: $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'a') secret contingency plan that called for suspension of the Constitution, turning control of the United States over to FEMA, appointment of military commanders to run state and local governments, and declaration of martial law during a national crisis.

The contingency plans relating to insurrection or national disturbances were worked out in meetings between North and Louis O. Guiffrida, Director of FEMA, from 1982 to 1984. The martial law provisions of Rex 84 were outlined in a June 30, 1982 memo written by Deputy Director of FEMA, John Brinkerhoff. Having obtained and studied a copy of the memo, The Miami Herald wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he scenario outlined in the Brinkerhoff memo resembled somewhat a paper Guiffrida had written in 1970 at the Army War College in Carlisle, Pa., in which he advocated martial law in case of a national uprising by black militants. The paper also advocated the roundup and transfer to "assembly centers or relocation camps" of at least 21 million "American Negroes."

Two days after the article appeared, Lt. Col. North began his sworn testimony before Congress in the Iran-Contra matter. [p. 281] When Representative Jack Brook of Texas tried to ask North about Rex 84, he was silenced by co-chairman Senator Daniel Inouye because, in Senator Inouye's words, "that question touches upon a highly sensitive and classified area...."
No more was heard about the matter. </snip>

He seems like a very credible commentator. Interesting stuff.
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Unread postby Peachy » Fri 03 Sep 2004, 11:53:53

Have any of you paid attention to the RNC? If you have you are either one of the adouring crowd, or you realize that our country is aproaching a constitution crisis. After control of all three branchs of government has fallen to the same extremeist elements how can you expect to have any balance of power?

I think that the President could declare martial law at any time in the name of fighting terrorism and at least 50% of the population would agree that it was the right thing to do. Do you expect opposition from the Congress? From the judicial branch? Really? What will you do when it happens?
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Unread postby lotrfan55345 » Fri 03 Sep 2004, 16:33:43

US concentraton camps:
link1
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Unread postby lotrfan55345 » Fri 03 Sep 2004, 16:35:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here over 600 prison camps in the United States, all fully operational and ready to receive prisoners. They are all staffed and even surrounded by full-time guards, but they are all empty. These camps are to be operated by FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) should Martial Law need to be implemented in the United States.

The Rex 84 Program was established on the reasoning that if a mass exodus of illegal aliens crossed the Mexican/US border, they would be quickly rounded up and detained in detention centers by FEMA. Rex 84 allowed many military bases to be closed down and to be turned into prisons.

Operation Cable Splicer and Garden Plot are the two sub programs which will be implemented once the Rex 84 program is initiated for its proper purpose. Garden Plot is the program to control the population. Cable Splicer is the program for an orderly takeover of the state and local governments by the federal government. FEMA is the executive arm of the coming police state and thus will head up all operations. The Presidential Executive Orders already listed on the Federal Register also are part of the legal framework for this operation.

The camps all have railroad facilities as well as roads leading to and from the detention facilities. Many also have an airport nearby. The majority of the camps can house a population of 20,000 prisoners. Currently, the largest of these facilities is just outside of Fairbanks, Alaska. The Alaskan facility is a massive mental health facility and can hold approximately 2 million people.


A person named Terry Kings wrote an article on his discoveries of camps
located in southern California. His findings are as follows:
Over the last couple months several of us have investigated three soon-to-be prison camps in the Southern California area. We had heard about these sites and wanted to see them for ourselves.

The first one we observed was in Palmdale, California. It is not operating as a prison at the moment but is masquerading as part of a water facility. Now why would there be a facility of this nature out in the middle of nowhere with absolutely no prisoners? The fences that run for miles around this large facility all point inward, and there are large mounds of dirt and dry moat surrounding the central area so the inside area is not visible from the road. There are 3 large loading docks facing the entrance that can be observed from the road. What are these massive docks going to be loading?

We observed white vans patrolling the area and one came out and greeted us with a friendly wave and followed us until we had driven safely beyond the area. What would have happened had we decided to enter the open gate or ask questions?

This facility is across the street from the Palmdale Water Department. The area around the Water Department has fences pointing outward, to keep people out of this dangerous area so as not to drown. Yet, across the street, the fences all point inward. Why? To keep people in? What people? Who are going to be it’s occupants?

There are also signs posted every 50 feet stating: State of California Trespassing Loitering Forbidden By Law Section 555 California Penal Code.

The sign at the entrance says: Pearblossom Operations and Maintenance Subcenter Receiving Department, 34534 116th Street East. There is also a guard shack located at the entrance.

We didn’t venture into this facility, but did circle around it to see if there was anything else visible from the road. We saw miles of fences with the top points all directed inward. There is a railroad track that runs next to the perimeter of this fenced area. The loading docks are large enough to hold railroad cars.

I wonder what they are planning for this facility? They could easily fit 100,000 people in this area. And who would the occupants be?

Another site is located in Brand Park in Glendale. There are newly constructed fences (all outfitted with new wiring that point inward). The fences surround a dry reservoir. There are also new buildings situated in the area. We questioned the idea that there were four armed military personnel walking the park. Since when does a public park need armed guards?

A third site visited was in the San Fernando Valley, adjacent to the Water District. Again, the area around the actual Water District had fences logically pointing out (to keep people out of the dangerous area). And the rest of the adjacent area which went on for several miles was ringed with fences and barbed wire facing inward (to keep what or who in?) Also, interesting was the fact that the addition to the tops of the fences were fairly new as to not even contain any sign of rust on them. Within the grounds was a huge building that the guard said was a training range for policemen. There were newly constructed roads, new gray military looking buildings, and a landing strip. For what? Police cars were constantly patrolling the several mile perimeter of the area.

From the parking lot of the Odyssey Restaurant a better view could be taken of the area that was hidden from site from the highway. There was an area that contained about 100 black boxes that looked like railroad cars. We had heard that loads of railroad cars have been manufactured in Oregon outfitted with shackles. Would these be of that nature? From our position it was hard to determine.

In searching the Internet, I have discovered that there are about 600 of these prison sites around the country (and more literally popping up overnight do they work all night). They are manned, but yet do not contain prisoners. Why do they need all these non-operating prisons? What are they waiting for? We continuously hear that our current prisons are overcrowded and they are releasing prisoners because of this situation. But what about all these facilities? What are they really for? Why are there armed guards yet no one to protect themselves against? And what is going to be the kick-off point to put these facilities into operation?

What would bring about a situation that would call into effect the need for these new prison facilities? A man-made or natural catastrophe? An earthquake, panic due to Y2K, a massive poisoning, a panic of such dimensions to cause nationwide panic?

Once a major disaster occurs (whether it is a real event or manufactured event does not matter) Martial Law is hurriedly put in place and we are all in the hands of the government agencies (FEMA) who thus portray themselves as our protectors. Yet what happens when we question those in authority and how they are taking away all of our freedoms? Will we be the ones detained in these camp sites? And who are they going to round up? Those with guns? Those who ask questions? Those that want to know what’s really going on? Does that include any of us? The seekers of truth?

When first coming across this information I was in a state of total denial. How could this be? I believed our country was free, and always felt a sense of comfort in knowing that as long as we didn’t hurt others in observing our freedom we were left to ourselves. Ideally we treated everyone with respect and honored their uniqueness and hoped that others did likewise.

It took an intensive year of searching into the hidden politics to discover that we are as free as we believe we are. If we are in denial, we don’t see the signs that are staring at us, but keep our minds turned off and busy with all the mundane affairs of daily life.

We just don’t care enough to find out the real truth, and settle for the hand-fed stories that come our way over the major media sources television, radio, newspaper, and magazines. But it’s too late to turn back to the days of blindfolds and hiding our heads in the sand because the reality is becoming very clear. The time is fast approaching when we will be the ones asking "What happened to our freedom? To our free speech? To our right to protect ourselves and our family? To think as an individual? To express ourselves in whatever way we wish?"

Once we challenge that freedom we find out how free we really are. How many are willing to take up that challenge? Very few indeed, otherwise we wouldn’t find ourselves in the situation that we are in at the present time. We wouldn’t have let things progress and get out of the hands of the public and into the hands of those that seek to keep us under their control no matter what it takes, and that includes the use of force and detainment for those that ask the wrong questions.

Will asking questions be outlawed next? Several instances have recently been reported where those that were asking questions that came too near the untold truth (the cover up) were removed from the press conferences and from the public’s ear. Also, those that wanted to speak to the press were detained and either imprisoned, locked in a psychiatric hospital, slaughtered (through make-believe suicides) or discredited.

Why are we all in denial over these possibilities? Didn’t we hear about prison camps in Germany, and even in the United States during World War II? Japanese individuals were rounded up and placed in determent camps during the duration of the War. Where was their freedom?

You don’t think it could happen to you? Obviously those rounded up and killed didn’t think it could happen to them either. How could decent people have witnessed such atrocities and still said nothing? Are we going to do the same here as they cart off one by one those individuals who are taking a stand for the rights of the citizens as they expose the truth happening behind the scenes? Are we all going to sit there and wonder what happened to this country of ours? Where did we go wrong? How could we let it happen?


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Unread postby jato » Fri 03 Sep 2004, 17:33:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') think that the President could declare martial law at any time in the name of fighting terrorism and at least 50% of the population would agree that it was the right thing to do. Do you expect opposition from the Congress? From the judicial branch? Really? What will you do when it happens?
Do you mean like after a terrorist sets off a nuke? Otherwise, things are running too smoothly right now to worry about this. It would take a catastrophe such as a nuke or Post Peak Oil mayhem for martial law to happen country-wide.
As to violating the Constitution, both the left and the right wingers do it. I am sick of the left infringing on my right to keep and bear arms! But that is for another thread.
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Re: US already preparing for martial law after peak oil?

Unread postby JayHMorrison » Fri 03 Sep 2004, 19:37:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Licho', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JayHMorrison', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NevadaGhosts', '
')Looks like presidential executive orders could disolve the Constitution instantly. Pretty scary.
Any president who tried to do it would tank in the polls quickly. That makes an impeachment much more likely. The Congress is not going to stick by a President with approval rating at 10% or lower.
Well, if one can disolve consitution, that means, he can completely change the basic laws, disolving congress and polls as well.. There is no congress or polls without constitution.. there are no "rules" without it..
You are a nut. Do you still believe that the Soviets liberated Poland? The president cannot dissolve the constitution. The Congress would likely ignore him and just proceed to impeachment hearings if a President tried to do something that insane.
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