[VMA131Marine]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pea-jay', 'O')kay so how much energy would get fed back into the grid really, when H2 production is going on in the basement? And even if a bare surplus balance were to occur between the house and the grid, could that difference power those living in apartments plus all those nonresidential uses such as offices, factories, schools. To be sure some of those buildings could also be generators of electricity, but I don't think he has taken the time to calculate the EROEI or even if the total wattage of the proposed generation would still be enough to power our way of life.

Articles like this are not the slightest bit helpful and lull many into a false sense of security. "Don't worry...technology will save us" or my favorite (NOT) "The stone age did not end because a lack of stones."

Full article: http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/ ... _after_oil

[pea-jay]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he point is that living in a home with modern conveniences that is independent of the grid is feasible with current technology.

[RainShadow]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pea-jay', 'Y')es, but can everyone live in one? Do we have enough resources to build everyone one? Is there enough time to retrofit or replace existing homes to meet the expected need for renewables to offset declining fossil fuel supplies? It's a lofty goal, but do the numbers (and implementation schedule pan out?) I am not sure if it does.

[savethehumans]

P.T. Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute."

P.T. Barnum was an optimist!

[jdmartin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pea-jay', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he point is that living in a home with modern conveniences that is independent of the grid is feasible with current technology.

[KevO]

As for giving out the wrong message or signal, well call me a selfish twat but the more I look around, the more I realise that nobody much is ever really going to get it.

The WCS is that when TSHTF 'they' are going to remember that you were the one harping on about peak oil for years and then they're gonna come a runnin to you and your food and your set up.
As has been said at
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic8391.html
we have done the wake up calls, we've left notes by the bed and we've spiked the coffee. Now it's time to say fuck em and let em sleep

??

KevO

[Pablo2079]

Here's a link to an article regarding getting a base oil and diesel from waste plastic.....

Here's part of the article:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he plastics they tested were mostly polyethylene. They began by pyrolyzing the material, heating it in a furnace in the absence of air to break down molecules to form a waxy fluid with molecular weight in the range of lube oil. Isomerization dewaxed the fluid to produce diesel and base oil. The base oil yield varied between 30 percent and 40 percent by weight, although that output could be increased by oligomerizing short-chain olefins, the main byproduct of the process.

According to the researchers, the quality of the base oil was consistent and exceptionally high – viscosity of between 3.4 centistoke and 5.4 cSt, pour points ranging from minus 13 to minus 37 degrees C, and viscosity index of 150 to 160.

“This is probably about as good as you’re going to get in a base oil,” said Miller, a fellow and senior consulting scientist at Chevron Energy Technology Co. in Richmond, Calif.

[Optimist]

IMHO TDP has the inside track on all the waste to fuel technologies for the following reasons:
1. Claimed ability to process mixed waste. Proven ability to process a real world waste (turkey guts), as opposed to processing a single component in a laboratory. No need to separate the "useful" part of the waste from the rest!
2. Proven ability to process wet waste, thus potentially including such diverse feedstocks as sewage sludge, yard clippings, dead animals, garbage, etc.
3. Full scale operating facility in Carthage, MO.
4. Known economic feasibility thanks to full scale operating facility. While $80/barrel does not sound particularly attractive right now, this may change if:
4.1 Crude prices pass $80/barrel.
4.2 TDP product can be used directly in diesel engines, thus converting to a diesel price of $1.90/gal, very competitive in today's market.
4.3 They can get the feedstock free (either due to the government outlawing the awful practise of feeding offal to farm animals, or by switching to an alternative feedstock). This would reduce the price to $60-65/barrel, touching current crude prices.
4.4 If the new energy bill qualifies TDP for the biofuel tax credit (as I believe it should), that would reduce the price immediately to $40/barrel - BINGO! Unfortunately, it appears that the biofuel tax credit is more about more handouts to farmers than creating a meaningful supply of homegrown, alternative energy.

[Optimist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ccording to the quote above, taken from the Kansas City Star article, am I to understand that at current production rates we have done the miraculous and managed, after "several years" of research, to turn a little under 1 TON of turkey into a little more than 1 barrel of crude oil? Or about 45 gallons?

[Optimist]

Well, at least the energy bill did one thing right. TDP oil is now included in tax credits as a "renewable diesel" and will receive the same tax credit as biodiesel ($42/barrel). Thus production cost has been reduced from ~$80/barrel to ~$40/barrel. Remember that this includes a premium of $15 - 20/barrel that RES is paying for the turkey guts. New plants will presumably source free feedstock, which would bring production cost down to $20 - 25/barrel. In some cases you would even be able to find suppliers willing to pay for the disposal of their waste, with a further reduction in production cost.

Bottom line: expect to see several more TDP plants in the next few years!

[Googolplex]

The simple response:

This is an interesting new way to produce oil, but like TDP it is not really an energy source like the oil we can get ready-made out of the ground is.

[Optimist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is an interesting new way to produce oil, but like TDP it is not really an energy source like the oil we can get ready-made out of the ground is.

[Dezakin]

Untill TDP actually gains credibility, its not a source or a sink, but a non-sequiter. I dont know (and neither do most other people) if TDP has any chance of being a viable hydrocarbon source outside a very select type of feedstock... currently turkey waste. If we can turn general garbage into useful stuff with some return on capital, then certainly it will be helpful.

This is the reason I allways bring out nuclear fission as the trump card; Not necissarily because I'm reflexively pro-nuke (although I do find much of the technology facinating) but because the economics and engineering are tractible and essentially solved problems, and the fuel situation for nuclear is secure for one hell of a long time.

I believe solar will eventually displace nuclear because its my hunch that the economics will eventually become more favorable to large solar concentrator farms utilizing economies of scale, but we don't have any idea when it will be competitive economically or how to illustrate when or why it will become less expensive than nuclear.

[Optimist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')ntill TDP actually gains credibility, its not a source or a sink, but a non-sequiter. I dont know (and neither do most other people) if TDP has any chance of being a viable hydrocarbon source outside a very select type of feedstock... currently turkey waste. If we can turn general garbage into useful stuff with some return on capital, then certainly it will be helpful.

[Googolplex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Optimist', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is an interesting new way to produce oil, but like TDP it is not really an energy source like the oil we can get ready-made out of the ground is.

[Googolplex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Optimist', 'H')owever, the concept behind the technology is the thing of the future in my opinion. Waste to energy, more precisely waste to liquid fuel.

[Optimist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')DP is nothing more then a way to convert our existing energy, mostly in the form of electricity to run the plant, into oil (and at a loss too, as its only 85% efficient overall). The waste is another required ingredient, yes, but its not where the energy input for TDP is.

[Bluster]

Changing World Technologies

[Starvid]

It is debateable. On one hand IIRC, there have not been any outside experts inspecting the plant, nor has any peer-reviewed papers been presented. On the other hand, who would build a big expensive plant if it was just a hoax?