[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he strong central government that you discuss would continue to attempt to ease human’s burden at the expense of the natural environment.

[Seeker]

As long as people think the only thing to do is sit around and wait for an elite, self-interested central authority to save them, simply because they feel that any other thing to do is pointless, then nothing is going to get done.

No central "authority" is willing or capable of dealing with these issues, nor will they ever be.

A Theory of Power -- Read this book, read about rhizome (chapter 9) and how it is stronger than hierarchy and less oppressive.

[Seeker]

Well, this thread has certainly gotten off-topic.

My original points still stand, if anyone remembers what those were.

1. There is no exit. There is no door. There is no Plan B. All of the possibilities out there for another way of life for us, we are not living them. Possibilities are not reality, it is time to focus on creating those as a reality. Waiting longer might turn out to be suicide. It doesn't hurt to prepare.
2. At this point, for those who have come to the understanding that Peak Oil is real and that there is a strong likelihood of collapse, continued discussion becomes an impediment to the construction of an alternative.
3. It might be wise to consider keeping a low profile while constructing this alternative. People might be ignoring us now, but as gas prices continue to rise, anything could set off the economic panic. And that would undermine our efforts to build alternatives, if not devastate them altogether.

If anyone has any more comments on these things, I'll be happy to engage with them. If not, thanks for reading. Best wishes.

Peace,
Devin

[Novus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Seeker', 'A')s long as people think the only thing to do is sit around and wait for an elite, self-interested central authority to save them, simply because they feel that any other thing to do is pointless, then nothing is going to get done.

[Seeker]

Become independent of the system! I think this also involves thinking for yourself and coming up with your own solution. I don't know what to do any more than anyone else. I suggest keeping up the Planning for the Future forum, and looking to construct various alternative social systems. There is a lot out there, just gotta find it.

Currently, I've only been able to explore the need for change in-depth. Building a solution is an entirely different process... it's not something you can sit down and learn about in one weekend. It will be a lifelong task for me, but luckily I've come to the perceived need pretty darn early. I just hope it's early enough...

[turmoil]

I suggest you go to an all-you-can-eat chinese buffet for dinner tonght, and eat as much beef as you can, and when you speak with people tell them to all buy SUVs and sports cars.

This way the crash will be quick and painless (3-5 years), and not long and drawn out (20-30 years)

I'm going there too, so maybe we can have a nice PO discussion. My treat!

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s long as people think the only thing to do is sit around and wait for an elite, self-interested central authority to save them, simply because they feel that any other thing to do is pointless, then nothing is going to get done.

[drew]

Devin, I agree whole heartedly.

As an aside, TPTB are not going to allow some new power structure to rise up in their stead, plain and simple. I don't care what kind of utopia, anarchy, commune, central authority is posited, it will not be allowed to replace the present system. My reasoning is simple-wealth equals power, controls it, and finances it. The wealthy will not give up their strangle hold without armed struggle.

For the rest of us we had better prepare for how to get food, water, heat (if necessary), and shelter, as well as some means of income in a PO post world. Income is necessary because the state will continue ergo taxes will continue, likely in some higher worse form.

I don't waste much time talking about PO aside from here.
My family, some freinds, that's it.
The average joe just cant get it-sorry about his luck.


Drew

[Novus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Seeker', 'B')ecome independent of the system! I think this also involves thinking for yourself and coming up with your own solution. I don't know what to do any more than anyone else. I suggest keeping up the Planning for the Future forum, and looking to construct various alternative social systems. There is a lot out there, just gotta find it.

[holmes]

The book Beyond Civilization I believe has the best explanation for a paradigm shift. read it, its good.. Tribalism has worked for a long time. a society based on tribalism. No communes. it happens right where you are at. You leave mentally not neccesarily physically. Then it all works off this shift.
The book is right on, IMHO.

[Ludi]

The problem with relying on a totalitarian government to see us through a powerdwon situation is that totalitarian governments tend to do what THEY want to do, not what YOU want them to do. They are as likely to do the wrong thing (like killing all the educated people or forcing them to do physical labor) as the right thing.

If you want totalitarian government, at least in the US, just sit back and let the current administration do their thing, they seem to be heading in that direction. Nevermind that they aren't interested in powerdown or sustainability, or mitigating global climate change, etc. But they are interested in control, and lots of it.

[entropyfails]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'W')ell, that's certainly a risk. Frankly, I don't think much of our chances either way.

Was it Kunstler who said what we need is a strong, authoritarian government that will dissolve itself when the powerdown is complete? I don't think anyone's naive enough to believe that will happen. However, I do believe that it would dissolve eventually, because it will be impossible to maintain control over such a large nation, without cheap energy.

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') won’t give up freedom because death seems preferable to slavery.

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', ' ')The Planning for the Future forum is the only forum I don't read because the advise presented there is complete nonsence. Those amature farmers will be the first to fail when things get ugly. They have the least experience, the worst land, and no protection from post peak lawlessness. The large authoritarian industrial and organic farms on the best land will last the longest. These are the lifeboats and the best way to survive is to get a seat on one.

[Ghog]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')arming is not easy, and the best land is now in the hands of agribusiness.

[Seeker]

This is an interesting debate, guys -- but I think we might be having this discussion in the wrong thread...

[Kez]

I think the whole point of a future, more Authoritarian government being better, is valid. I don't see how a society that is crumbling can maintain both its immense liberties and freedoms and deal with such a massive crisis at the same time.

An authoritative body has to force all those uncooperative people to change their life in a big way. People are not going to change for the better with so many freedoms. By the time they do change, it will be because the economy has collapsed and by then I think it will be years too late.

Nobody wants some big authoritative government deciding everything, but if the alternative is roving, starving mobs with guns and plenty of ammunition, I know which system I prefer. We will have to surrender many of our freedoms if we choose to survive a massive collapse, if a collapse does indeed happen.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kez', 'I') think the whole point of a future, more Authoritarian government being better, is valid. I don't see how a society that is crumbling can maintain both its immense liberties and freedoms and deal with such a massive crisis at the same time.

An authoritative body has to force all those uncooperative people to change their life in a big way. People are not going to change for the better with so many freedoms. By the time they do change, it will be because the economy has collapsed and by then I think it will be years too late.

Nobody wants some big authoritative government deciding everything, but if the alternative is roving, starving mobs with guns and plenty of ammunition, I know which system I prefer. We will have to surrender many of our freedoms if we choose to survive a massive collapse, if a collapse does indeed happen.

[FatherOfTwo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Seeker', 'B')ecome independent of the system!

[Seeker]

Thanks for telling me how my own personal solution will be ineffective for me. How much do you know about me? Hm? Do you know how old I am, or what I do for a living (if anything?), or what resources I have access to, or how the crash is going to play out, or exactly when the crash is going to be? Because last time I checked, I didn't see any omniscient people running around. (And if you ARE omniscient, you pretty much suck at marketing your solutions to world crises. What's the use in knowing everything when no one listens?)

But I'll give you a listen, anyway. Please start a thread, if you would, letting us know how everything is going to play out, and how powerdown is going to happen, and what starving horde will be where at what time... that way we can start planning our lives around what you say. Thanks so much for your time, I know you omniscient types are really busy.