PeakOil is You
How civilizations deal with threats to their existence
Re: Byzantines and Romans, What's in a name?
by Russian_Cowboy » Sun 24 Jul 2005, 20:09:35
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('abelardlindsay', 'W')hat people call them is not one of these factors. For instance, Vladimir Putin may call himself a Russian as did the earlier czarist rulers of Russia but if one was going to do a Tainteresque civilizational analysis one would not consider Czarist Russia and The current Russia as one system. Their institutional systems, economic structures, etc are totally and completely different.
This is the case with almost every European country. Why should the Spanish, British, French etc rename themselves? The population growth and technological advances always force societies to change their political structures.
I would be very careful taking Tainter's works for granted. As far as I know, we have only a very vague idea of the human history more than 500 years ago. Many chronicles and other documents have been doctored or cooked to please current rulers and public opinion or to reinforce contemporary points of view by pseudo-heritage of ancestors. We do not even have to venture 500 years back in time. As recently as 1787, Catherine the Great (Russian Emperess) showed European embassadors the new lands and cities along the Black sea coast ceded to Russia by the Ottoman Empire. The guests were so scared by the might of Russia overhanging the puny European countries that the embassador of Sachsen (now a part of Germany) wrote an article that all those new Russian cities and villages were decorations built by count Potemkin and moved along the delegation's path along with the people and cattle to impress the guests. Even though the technical means of 18th century were not sufficent to move large masses of people furtively and unnoticeably, Europe welcomed this lie and even coined the famous term "Potemkin villages."
In modern times, the societies, that faced the threat of being destroyed, mobilized and concentrated their resources and power by building totalitarian regimes. This was the case with Germany, Italy, USSR in the 1920es - 30es. Stalin even said in 1929 that USSR is half a century behind Europe and if all the resources were not mobilized to defend the country, the USSR would be conquered and the Soviets would be exterminated like the native Americans. This was an excuse for the extermination of the rich peasants in 1930 and sending all the political opponents and those suspicious of not being loyal to the Gulag. The US is now going in a similar direction, but it has not yet reached the mass executions of non-loyals stage.
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by Leanan » Sun 24 Jul 2005, 20:51:38
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') would be very careful taking Tainter's works for granted. As far as I know, we have only a very vague idea of the human history more than 500 years ago.
True, but Tainter is an archaeologist, not a historian. Much of his book is based on fairly "hard" evidence. For example, carbon dating and geology that shows it was not an earthquake or tsunami that caused the downfall of Crete. The written documents he uses to support his case are mostly mundane things, such as the text of laws passed, that are likely to be more "solid" than the average historical accounts.
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Re: Byzantines and Romans, What's in a name?
by MicroHydro » Sun 24 Jul 2005, 22:34:49
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Russian_Cowboy', 'I')n modern times, the societies, that faced the threat of being destroyed, mobilized and concentrated their resources and power by building totalitarian regimes. This was the case with Germany, Italy, USSR in the 1920es - 30es. Stalin even said in 1929 that USSR is half a century behind Europe and if all the resources were not mobilized to defend the country, the USSR would be conquered and the Soviets would be exterminated like the native Americans. This was an excuse for the extermination of the rich peasants in 1930 and sending all the political opponents and those suspicious of not being loyal to the Gulag. The US is now going in a similar direction, but it has not yet reached the mass executions of non-loyals stage.
Agree entirely. Very few Americans have been specifically targeted by the current regime yet, Senator Paul Wellstone being the most blatant political killing in 2002. But the infrastructure for mass executions has been constructed. Google FEMA Camps or Rex 84 to see photos of the US domestic gulag.
"The world is changed... I feel it in the water... I feel it in the earth... I smell it in the air... Much that once was, is lost..." - Galadriel
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by aldente » Mon 25 Jul 2005, 01:44:33
This thread is out of my league.
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The following post content is subject to deletion:
Nudity, partial nudity, or adult content. This includes any explicit images as well as language describing sex acts or erotica.
{Image deleted due to explicit nature by MQ}
The following post content is subject to deletion:
Nudity, partial nudity, or adult content. This includes any explicit images as well as language describing sex acts or erotica.
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Re: Byzantines and Romans, What's in a name?
by abelardlindsay » Tue 26 Jul 2005, 07:10:36
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Russian_Cowboy', '
')Stalin's purges, World War II, History Channel, etc.
')Stalin's purges, World War II, History Channel, etc.
I was going to write a long digression about Russian and European History, etc but really it boils down to this: the wars of Europe had been ongoing somewhat continuously since the middle ages. It's just that with the radical technological innovations of the late 19th century they became fantastically more deadly. They also became more self-righteous and ruthless because the wars were no longer about Christianity but instead were about the ideas of Darwin and Marx.
Western civilization did not collapse though! It grew and grew! That's because we had growing supplies of energy. We could therefore grow our systems to extrordinary compexity and move out the marginal utility curve much farther. With tech, we got even a little farther than we otherwise would have. We still have gone nowhere though in propulsion and power since the 40s, just some engineering refinements but nothing revolutionary since jets and nuke plants. Human lifespans have hung around 70 in developed countries for quite some time.
In the greatest irony of the 20th century and perhaps all of history the communists did us Bourgeouis in the west a huge favor though! The communists put at least 1/2 of the world's population in a state of really low petroleum utilization. Thanks Stalin and Mao! Kind of a bummer that China and India gave up central planning and now consume so much energy. America was having such a fun party there for a while getting to use all the oil for itself while your average Chinese peasent struggled to get enough to eat in their "utopia". Have any of you seen those graphs of historical energy usage per capita? And you wondered why nobody gives a damn about Zimbabwe or Venezuela (as long as they keep exporting oil to us).
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