URGENT: Everyone, QUIET!!

by **julianj** » Fri 22 Jul 2005, 19:17:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'b')ut i can promise you they wont want to work either. They'll just want to sit on their asses & watch me to all the life sustaining work for them.

by **Seeker** » Fri 22 Jul 2005, 21:00:31

Pops: I think you're right on, here. We're not disagreeing at all, I think what you are doing here is a good example of what I was trying to encourage.

bruss01: Thanks for the post, I think you hit it right on the head with what I was trying to say. I have very little to add to what you say. I'd like to emphasize that endless discussion without action is counter-productive... but I don't mean that we should just stop discussing the issues altogether.

RonMN -- The "safety net" you mention is not much of a safety net. I was thinking something more long-lasting and widespread... a sustainable safety net, if you will. An entire alternative social organization that also provides for these needs, one to fall back on when civilization starts crumbling. I mentioned Rhizome, that's more along the lines of what I'm thinking.

I think you're right: a lot of people wouldn't want to live without having a social system in place. Each person fending for themselves isn't very appealing, particularly in a post-crash world. But julianj makes an important point: when people start dying, I think they'll suddenly realize that alternative ways of life don't look so unappealing, after all.

by **Free** » Fri 22 Jul 2005, 22:53:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bruss01', ' ')
He who yells "fire!" in a crowded theatre may find he has difficulty getting out himself.

Revealing Peak Oil to people who are disinclined or unprepared to be responsible for themselves and their dependents will only generate a frantic fear that will manifest in unpredictable ways. It may even precipitate swift and autocratic actions on the part of the government to head off a widespread panic. Martial law, anti-hoarding decrees and a ban on firearms ownership would be very inconvenient to those of us who are trying to make sure we can survive the coming crisis by preparing now.

by **PlanComplete** » Fri 22 Jul 2005, 22:59:24

Excellent analogy, but I disagree with the some of the things you said/implied.
If you knew you would die by trampling if you yelled fire, would you still?
Because if the government does autocratic to "help more survive" takes are guns nationalize our farms, our food producing lands. The die off will still happen it will just get postponed, and when the postpone ends, the die off will be much more severe. (All IMHO of course)

by **Easy_Goin** » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 00:15:46

I agree with you as well.

I don't talk unless somebody asks questions and I want to help them. I have begun keeping quiet about this. The arrogant greedy ones especially. Let them buy another big SUV. Show off their money.

I will quitly move myself, my friends and my family in the proper direction.
1. Close family and close friends.
2. the rest

I want my children to survive. Formost

The longer it takes for others to figure it out. The better, terrible to look at it like that but I have finally come to realise that this is how most others look at the world. "What about me?" So I ask, "What about my family and close friends?"

Even now I discuss very little about what I see coming. I can't place a date but rather see a series of 'events' occurring that lead into a downward spiral. These could be anything from price spikes, to terrorists to just plan old nature causing a decline.

I simply want to be prepared for my children.

by **MrPC** » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 00:24:36

My own preferred logic is that people with intelligence would have picked up on peak oil by now. Those who have not will probably perish in the die off. Many of those who understand will join them not long thereafter, likely including myself.

Remember that everybody dies. The only real questions are how and when. And since the world has a limited carrying capacity, better the highly limited number of survivors be those who became energy literate well before the crash.

by **Free** » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 00:30:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PlanComplete', ' ')
If you knew you would die by trampling if you yelled fire, would you still?
Because if the government does autocratic to "help more survive" takes are guns nationalize our farms, our food producing lands. The die off will still happen it will just get postponed, and when the postpone ends, the die off will be much more severe. (All IMHO of course)

by **Leanan** » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 19:41:05

I suspect Free is right. If you want your children to survive, your best bet is probably a strong, autocratic government, a la China. No matter what you do, no matter what you build, it can all be taken from you. No matter how many guns you have.

I don't have a lot of faith in politics, but political action is our best chance.

OTOH, the political action you choose may not be directly peak-oil related. Support alternative energy or local farmers for environmental reasons, without mentioning peak oil, if you want. Support higher mileage standards, car pooling, and lower oil imports as a stand against terrorism. ("If you drive alone, you drive with Bin Laden.") Demand that the borders be secured, and let people think it's because you're worried about homeland security or American jobs. Don't tell them you want to reduce the population before TSHTF.

by **Seeker** » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 20:32:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'I') suspect Free is right. If you want your children to survive, your best bet is probably a strong, autocratic government, a la China. No matter what you do, no matter what you build, it can all be taken from you. No matter how many guns you have.

I don't have a lot of faith in politics, but political action is our best chance.

by **Seeker** » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 20:46:02

I don't see how yelling "fire!" in a crowded theatre does anything when you don't have a door.

We do not have a solution for Peak Oil. There is no "solution" that allows the status quo to continue indefinitely as it is through Peak Oil. We certainly do not have a "solution" for the problems that FOLLOW Peak Oil, ones that not so many people here seem to be aware of. Peak Oil is only one of many upcoming catastrophes for the status quo... and perhaps one of the easiest, all things considered.

And there is certainly not a "solution" that is going to enable people to walk away from civilization when TSHTF. As it is, when that price shock hits (the first devastating symptom of Peak Oil to come) people won't have any place to go. There is no Plan B. The construction of this alternative takes time, time we don't have.

My thinking is this: if YOU, personally, are not capable of surviving a crash, then you'd better be working on it, and fast. We have seen ample evidence that there is at least a good possibility of an imminent crash, seen even stronger evidence that there is one likely in the next 50 years. Better start now -- change isn't easy. Especially not when we have to become completely self-sufficient whereas before we were completely dependent.

"FIRE!"
...
"... but where is the exit??!!"

by **Cyrus** » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 21:20:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')FIRE!"
...
"... but where is the exit??!!"

by **Badger** » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 21:40:58

its about getting your mind in gear when you see reality is going to be different than what you first thought about your future

everybody has a different mindset and has a different perception to a common theme its resonably healthy to get others views and thoughts on all topics to get the mind in gear travelling forwards not in reverse or neutral for some it takes a little longer than others

at the end of the day we are all individuals different hopes and dreams many peoples dreams have been shattered mine have so its back to the drawing board and this type of forum is a one of many good places to get some ideas for survival

after all thats the name of the game survival all ways has been its just that we have forgotten that basic fact in the past 50 years

you dont need the corporation but they need you thats a big problem for transition

by **Leanan** » Sun 24 Jul 2005, 00:14:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')m. Why would you ever put your children in the hands of a distant, heartless autocratic government, when you can easily walk away from this scheme?

by **Seeker** » Sun 24 Jul 2005, 01:52:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')m. Why would you ever put your children in the hands of a distant, heartless autocratic government, when you can easily walk away from this scheme?

by **jdmartin** » Sun 24 Jul 2005, 02:49:08

You make some good arguments but I'm not particulary worried about it.

Most anyone I mention Peak Oil to looks at me as if I've just stepped off the mothership. You could buy billboard space in Times Square and people would continue on their same old path. I don't particularly believe that there's going to be a panic, because everyone will believe that someone or something (George Bush, Science, God, whatever) is going to swoop in and save the day right up to the point where it's too late to do anything else about it anyway.

Look at the biblical story of Noah. He walked around telling everyone that it was going to flood 40 days and 40 nights. Everyone laughed at him while he stood around building his Ark. Then he got the whole thing built and they all got in. Everyone was still laughing. They were laughing even when it was raining, right up to the point where there was massive flooding and nothing dry to stand on anymore. By that point, there was no changing the situation anyway so it didn't matter. Still, people came beating on the door trying to get in, to no avail.

I think your idea of door-construction is going to be a lot like ol' Noah. I don't think anyone will bother you as you construct your door. Of course, when the bombs start going off no one is going to care that you built the door - they'll all be trying to trample you to get out anyway. If you're already in the next room they'll be running over you along the way. Which is why you might want to learn the fine art of marksmanship in between your carpentry classes :razz:

by **Ardalla** » Sun 24 Jul 2005, 03:56:07

Ok, here's an idea for people who are interested in exploring a possible doorway.

Sandhill Farm

From what I remember of these people, they are very friendly and would welcome some help with the harvest this year. It would give you some practical experience in alternative culture. There are usually lots of people there in the fall for the sorghum harvest and you could speak with them about your ideas.

by **Leanan** » Sun 24 Jul 2005, 09:15:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he best chance for life is certainly not in the city, where all of the starving hordes will be going. The best chance for life is to be independent, to be outside of the scheme. That way you're not caught in the trap. People clustered in cities because they were dependent on their systems...

by **entropyfails** » Sun 24 Jul 2005, 11:47:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'O')h, definitely. But if what you value is life, which what an earlier poster said, then your best chance is with a strong central government. As societies like Rome and the Maya collapsed, people clustered closer to the cities. Because it was easier to get food in the cities, and because it was too dangerous to be in a small village or isolated farm.

Governments may kill their people, but it's generally not for no reason. They may take your farm, but they'll keep you around to work it. While a starving mob will just kill you.

I suspect a lot of Iraqis remember the days under Saddam with fondness now.

by **Leanan** » Sun 24 Jul 2005, 13:04:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') believe that ignorance causes this selfishness and by exposing ourselves to other ways of thinking, we can learn to face our inner demons. But you obviously have not interest in that.

by **entropyfails** » Sun 24 Jul 2005, 15:03:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'I')t would be great if we could switch to an egalitarian, low-energy, hunter-gatherer existence.

URGENT: Everyone, QUIET!!

seeker

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