[KaiserJeep]

I held my anger in check and thought about my response to these two bigoted members. Then I decided that for the sake of civility in this Forum I would not respond in kind.

To those of you reading but not participating, observe how the bigoted will do and say almost anything, rather that to confront their own Rascist natures.

I'll simply say that I do believe that Minorities - and not just Blacks - are the victims of bigotry from Whites, among others. They don't oppress themselves, either - the majority oppresses them.

The government(s) are doing something intended to help the situation, and the Reverse Racism that is the topic of this thread has clearly gone over the top, and in the opinion of many including me, is now harming rather than helping.

This thread has not IMHO produced any insights that are likely to help the situation. It has however, clearly demonstrated that the most prejudiced among the Majority are those blaming the Minority victims of Racism, for Racism.

Think about what you have seen here in this thread. Think long and hard. I will only respond to thoughtful and considered comments after this. To those who had the courage to participate, I thank you, one and all, regardless of whether I agree with you or not.

[Cog]

In a practical sense as both a buyer and seller of property its next to impossible for me to discriminate based on race. As a buyer of the house I live in now, I never met the owners. As a seller now, I will never meet the person who is buying it. A seller is not required to be at closing. I will also never meet the buyers agent. I only deal with my own agent.

A person is entitled to see and place an offer on any house on the MLS(Multiple listing service). The agent doesn't know the race of the person who asks to view the house prior to meeting them at the house. As a seller, I'm not in the house when its shown since my agent has advised, as most agents do, that the sellers not be there when the house is shown. If an offer is made and I accept the offer, I'm mostly stuck with the deal at that point. At closing, only the buyer has to be there signing his 40 pages of documents. All I care about is the cash. All the buyer and seller's agents care about is the deal closing because that is how they get paid.

I don't care if the new owner deals crack out of the house I just sold him. Because I won't be living there anymore. At least from the real estate end of things, the sellers and the various agents involved only care about closing the deal. Its how all the various parties get paid. I won't ever know the race of the person buying my house nor will I ever care.

Now maybe where you live there is a grand conspiracy between all real estate agents and sellers of property to keep blacks out. But in fly-over country, I've not seen it in action. The only thing that matters is the deal going through. Price is really the only factor from keeping you from buying the house of your dreams. And sorry I'm not giving you a discount because of past injustices to your race.

[KaiserJeep]

We are not talking about Blacks, but Minorities. If you want to understand this phenomenon of Racism in housing, then watch the NetFlix docuseries "explained", episode 3, entitled "The Racial Wealth Gap".



It's real, it is happening in the USA today, and has been happening forever. In spite of your belief or disbelief, this is very real, it is worsening as time passes, and it's happening in the country we live in, and it is perpetrated by Whites on Minorities.

I looked for a direct link to episode 3, but could not find one. You have to have a streaming provider to see it. 16 minutes only.

As a matter of personal experience, I did relate finding the modern equivalent of "redlining" online in a popular real estate application. I will not name the application, nor do I claim that the application enforces any requirement for use of the feature. If you are using it, and the first picture in the series of images of the residence is outlined in red, then the residence is in a Minority neighborhood. If the first image is outlined in blue, then the home is iin a Senior
neighborhood that is discriminationg against those with young children. Most listings are NOT color coded, but a fair number are. I just explained why it is possible that you both benefitted from such discriminatory practices, either in buying or selling, without any personal knowledge that such practices even exist.

Because, you can just bet that what I just related is understood by real estate agents, mortgage lenders, and insurance agents. Who will not talk about this or acknowledge it, ever.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '.')..bigoted ... bigoted ...Rascist...

[Cog]

KJ ignores anything that is not in his narrative. I just explained in detail to him the real estate process and he completely ignored it. No one cares about race when you are selling a house. The sellers don't care and neither do the two realtors. All we care about is getting paid. Correct me if I'm wrong, KJ but minority people's money is just as green as us racist white folk's money.

[KaiserJeep]

Tanada: Again I apologize, and I understand that Plant is baiting me, and I am taking the bait. Cog, if you still feel the same after reading this next message, say so and I'll take aim at YOUR prejudices.

Plant, I could care less what color skin my neighbors have, or who moves in to this neighborhood. Because in Silicon Valley, it truly doesn't matter - if you can afford to live in this neighborhood, you have the only qualification they care about, which is money - an income that supports this toney neighborhood.

The one thing they discriminate against in my neighborhood is "multiples". Truth be known, that is why we have a Homeowners Association, and why there is a law that says that a "private residence" cannot be occupied by more than three people "unrelated by blood or marriage". There in fact is one such home in our tiny HA of 38 homes, that is occupied for nine months out of the year by three college kids. The home itself was purchased by the parents of the listed owner, who is one of the three. Between them, these kids (and their girlfriends) have 7 vehicles, and all 7 are parked on the street, as the garage MAY be their "party room", because they have a lot of parties. They are - barely - within the law, and we have never been able to prove that the girls actually live there, they have listed permanent residences in other parts of the Valley, probably at their parent's homes.

And aside from the annoyances that the constant partying and the lack of parking spots on the street, nobody gives a damn, least of all that these kids and their GFs are of several different skin colors.

On Nantucket, you may or may not remember that I am a contributor to the historical publications of the Nantucket Historical Society. Which is how I come to know that there is a beach within the border of the town of Nantucket that used to be named "Black Bottom Beach", because it really was a segregated beach that was reserved for the use of the Minority domestic servants on the island, almost all Black, who probably would not have dared to swim anywhere else. The beach itself had the name changed in the 1960s, according to the NHS archives. However the locals still call it "Black Bottom Beach", and anybody is welcome to swim there.

As for my own newly inherited home, which appraised for $1.15M in 2016, it is NOT in a segregated area. It is a slightly run down 900sq ft, 2 bedroom, 2 bath home, on a private unpaved road that the residents must maintain, and the town does not grade or plow snow on, and which has no mail delivery. You also must have a well and a private septic system to live there, and you will find multiple skin tones on the road, since it was one of the last places on the island that appreciated to a level that is unaffordable to most Middle Class people. I have both horses and my Brother-In-Law as neighbors, and he annoys me more, since there are a number of direlict trucks and a rotting wooden boat parked on his property. Those last may be going away, since he has said he is sub-dividing his land so that his son can build there.

For the record, there are streets that were largely occupied by Blacks when I last lived there in the 1970s. Now they are just as expensive as everywhere else on that island, and few Black faces remain. The only Middle Class people that can afford the place inherited a house, just like me.

Now I have more information for you about housing discrimination, and you can take it or leave it, I am only offering information. First, a couple of years ago, I fell into the habit of using one particular online real estate application. I also took an embarrassingly long time to understand what the red and blue borders around the photos of the listed homes meant. In fact it took multiple trips to Wisconsin, and whenever we had a half day free when the grandkids were busy, we drove and looked at neighborhoods that had homes on the "shortlist". When I noticed such a red border around a recent home listing in Southern Wisconsin, near the Illinois border, I went and signed onto three other real estate apps, and found that ALL THREE had the red border on photo #1. I have concluded that these red/blue borders are inserted by the "listing agent" and that they frequently get removed, probably by the MLS itself. But on some apps, after the listing appears in the MLS with the border, it remains until the next update FROM the MLS to the app, probably a sale or a pending sale or a price change.

My conclusion, is that there are more people who believe in NOT doing this color coding than who do, and yet it is still happening, often enough that eventually a denser type such as myself figures it out. During the period when I had noticed the color codes, but not yet reached the obvious conclusion, I had a conversation with an older woman we knew slightly, as she was the Mother of another girl who worked at the US Red Cross with my daughter (they worked back in the Hurricane Katrina years, but are still freinds today). I asked this woman (a licensed Realtor) what the red/blue borders meant, and she was too embarrassed to tell me, so I was motivated to figure it out.

I'll say this, a lot of online listings have the first picture in the group of home pictures slightly blurry, or at least smaller than the others in the series. Knowing this, the logical conclusion would be an edit to eliminate the color border. There is obviously a movement at eliminating such pernicious and subtle discrimination, whether driven by some government agency, or the owners of the RE agencies, or the threat of lawsuits, or whatever.

Now Plant, I'm going to ask you specificly to address your own bigotry, as I have confronted and overcome my own in the last 3-4 years. This includes understanding where such a thing originated. In my case, it was my Father, rendered homeless by the Dust Bowl, who became an "Oakie", after the farm blew away and was taken by the bank. He left school and lived in an old Black sedan as a migrant farm worker for 4 years, then ended up a few miles North of where I live now, my Paternal Grandparents became shipyard workers during WW2, building "Victory Ships" at a North Bay shipbuilding firm which folded after VJ day.

Niether of my Grandparents could read then, although they insisted that my Father go to school, right up until they lost the farm in Oklahoma. My Father used the "N" word every day. When POTUS Eisenhower, fresh from a post as Supreme Allied Commander, de-segregated the US Armed Forces, he was motivated to get his GED, and to take the "servicewide" examination for Warrant Officer, which required a High School level of education, which his current rank of Master Chief Petty Officer did not. Then with his newly enlarged salary, and his newly acquired motivation (racially integrated military housing) he signed his first mortgage.

That is the thumbnail sketch of my background. I do not doubt that you have something similar. I think you need to think long and hard about this before you answer.

For the record, I think that it will be a frigid day in He!! before any form of Reverse Racism corrects the differences that humans feel for "us" versus "them". I think these things originate in our primate genes, as do most behaviors. I believe you have to understand and confront such feelings before you can overcome them.

Last parting thought: The Federal government very probably understands even better than you where and why Racism exists. In fact I am pretty sure that they spend a lot of your money figuring such things out, via "consultants" and expensive "research". They probably even understand how much resentment the various forms of Reverse Racism invoke. They would do something more effective if they could. Meanwhile, there are things they are NOT going to admit to anybody, because they are not PC. One of those is the infamous HGP we discussed earlier in this thread. My guess is that if they admitted the underlying facts, they would have to abandon the FHA and AA and all other forms of Reverse Racism, which will NEVER correct the differences that arise in the genes of human beings.

One of those BTW, is atheletic abilities of various types. If you ever wondered why Blacks dominate professional sports, the reason was also discovered and published in the HGP. But among other things, if this information became well known, the NBA, the NFL, etc might be forced to institute "Affirmative Action" until racial diversity existed in the professional sports, and Whites represent approximately 2/3rds of the players.

It's not happening, because all they really care about at this moment is housing and wages. But it could happen in the future. My guess is, it won't, because they will NEVER be frank and truthful about their discoveries in the HGP.

Because, as far as they are concerned, YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '
')
On Nantucket...there is a beach within the border of the town of Nantucket that used to be named "Black Bottom Beach", because it really was a segregated beach that was reserved for the use of the Minority domestic servants on the island, almost all Black, who probably would not have dared to swim anywhere else. The beach itself had the name changed in the 1960s, according to the NHS archives. However the locals still call it "Black Bottom Beach", and anybody is welcome to swim there.

[KaiserJeep]

As somebody once said, "There are none so blind as those who will not see". It was a proverb from around the 16th Century, I think.

Plant, you have taken denial to an absurb level. It's not worth any more of my time, I made a sincere effort to help you, even after it became clear that you obviously do not want any help.

As I am sure you understand full well, I was giving examples of the implementation of covert Racism online, in a way that was deniable. Sure enough, you denied it, just as you are denying your own Racism to yourself.

Cog, I'm done with Plant now, bring it on.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'A')s somebody once said, "There are none so blind as those who will not see". It was a proverb from around the 16th Century, I think.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'A')s somebody once said, "There are none so blind as those who will not see". It was a proverb from around the 16th Century, I think.

[KaiserJeep]

Plant, in your dream world where things are "better" and "improving", this is happening:

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'P')lant... this is happening:

[KaiserJeep]

What argues against your theory is that I am talking about Minorities, while you choose to focus on Blacks.

The majority of Hispanics are conservative, religious (even Catholic) and believe in strong family values and have a strong middle class work ethic. Yet because they suffer from the EXACT SAME discrimination from the US White Majority, they have the very same wealth disparity afflicting Blacks.

So try again. Make another excuse for the discrimination inflicted upon Minorities by YOUR RACIAL GROUP, THE WHITE MAJORITY. Then find another excuse after that, then another. Because after all, YOU just couldn't be wrong about such a thing. Even though YOU have benefitted YOUR ENTIRE LIFE from White priviledge, and those Portuguese and Spanish speaking, conservative people with a strong middle class work ethic and even stronger family values than most USA citizens, must be doing something else to explain why they don't get ahead as fast as their OPPRESSORS, which (if you haven't figured this oh-so-obvious point out yet, include your own bigotted, prejudiced self). Because after all, this is the USA, and even though THEY are US citizens, along with all the Blacks that YOUR RACIAL GROUP has been oppressing for 300 years, you are oh-so-sure you have it right.

Because if you haven't fiigured this out yet, the US Government stats don't have a lot to do with illegals. They are measuring US citizens of Hispanic and African ancestry. So go ahead, make another excuse, because you couldn't possibly be prejudiced, could you?

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'W')hat argues against your theory is that I am talking about Minorities, while you choose to focus on Blacks.

The majority of Hispanics are conservative, religious (even Catholic) and believe in strong family values and have a strong middle class work ethic. Yet because they suffer from the EXACT SAME discrimination from the US White Majority, they have the very same wealth disparity afflicting Blacks.

So try again. Make another excuse for the discrimination inflicted upon Minorities by YOUR RACIAL GROUP, THE WHITE MAJORITY. Then find another excuse after that, then another. Because after all, YOU just couldn't be wrong about such a thing. Even though YOU have benefitted YOUR ENTIRE LIFE from White priviledge, and those Portuguese and Spanish speaking, conservative people with a strong middle class work ethic and even stronger family values than most USA citizens, must be doing something else to explain why they don't get ahead as fast as their OPPRESSORS, which (if you haven't figured this oh-so-obvious point out yet, include your own bigotted, prejudiced self). Because after all, this is the USA, and even though THEY are US citizens, along with all the Blacks that YOUR RACIAL GROUP has been oppressing for 300 years, you are oh-so-sure you have it right.

Because if you haven't fiigured this out yet, the US Government stats don't have a lot to do with illegals. They are measuring US citizens of Hispanic and African ancestry. So go ahead, make another excuse, because you couldn't possibly be prejudiced, could you?

[KaiserJeep]

Tanada, I think you completely missed my point. There have always been Minority professionals, who are Black, Hispanic, Asian, whatever, and whose earnings and achievements are on a par with White professionals. Just as there have always been broken homes, drug addicts, and petty criminals of all sorts and all races including White. We are talking about a bell curve and those are the extremes, with a relative few at each end. What is interesting is the center or Middle Class, and that is where the racial wealth gap exists, that is where White priviledge exists, and that is where discrimination in housing and wages exist.

There are larger numbers of people in this class, and the matter of upward mobility depends not only upon ability, but the network of contacts and the opportunities that this brings. That is also where Racism, both overt and covert, sorts out those who are upwardly mobile from those who are not. In my extended family group, for example, I am upwardly mobile, the first one to get a college degree, a management position, and a professional job in Silicon Valley. I worked hard, and I didn't have the additional baggage of a non-White skin. But I have cousins who still exist in Oklahoma and Arkansas, and lead lives of grinding poverty today, in rural areas.

So make up your mind which side of the fence you are on. Either Minorities are being repressed by those who are in the Majority and have White skins, or they are not, and the differences exist because they are inferior and cannot compete.

...I think it's prejudice, and have said so repeatedly, and even given personal anecdotes that I believe support such discriminatory practices in housing. Are you agreeing with me, or saying that Minorities are inferior and simply can't compete?

The Reverse Racism that the government(s) is/are applying is - I think all of us agree about this much - fundamentally unfair, and creating a backlash that may be perpetuating racial prejudices. But the wealth disparities exist and continue to be measured and are worsening as time passes, and regardless of the root cause, the government(s) are attempting to eliminate such.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '
')The Reverse Racism that the government(s) is/are applying is - I think all of us agree about this much - fundamentally unfair, and creating a backlash that may be perpetuating racial prejudices. But the wealth disparities exist and continue to be measured and are worsening as time passes, and regardless of the root cause, the government(s) are attempting to eliminate such.

[KaiserJeep]

Fair enough. But I want to make one thing clear. If you have an income that is not growing AT LEAST 10% PER YEAR, you are losing ground, and experiencing reduced purchasing power. That average 10% annual inflation compounds rapidly. The charts above are in constant 2013 dollars, and are among the few that account for inflation. The huge numbers of people on government so-called "entitlements" are facing desperate circumstances as these simply do not increase due to the COLA (cost of living adjustment) which is based on the CPI (consumer price index), a deliberatly inadequate measure of inflation that excludes food and energy costs.

Now that (by the prevailing opinion here) the oil peak is in the recent past, we are looking at energy costs that will steadily increase along with increases in food and actually anything transported with fuels. Things are going to be worsening and these trends are long term.

There is already a basic unfairness in the way things are shaping up, and there are bound to be many lower income people in the White majority which blame the increasing numbers of Minorities who are sharing these changing circumstances with them. It has always been so, now it will get worse, faster.

Edit: Perhaps this will stimulate a few thoughts: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', ' ')Perhaps this will stimulate a few thoughts: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/

[mmasters]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')The Atlantic article is clear that people of any race can succeed if they work hard and choose a career that pays good wages. In talking about the meritocracy, that article says:

[KaiserJeep]

mmasters, the terms Black/White/Asian are actually obsolete, these three broad labels for the races based on skin color do not match well with the discoveries of the Human Genome Project. The human evolutionary tree is also much more complex than you would think, watch the 2018 NOVA documentary "Dawn of Humanity", concerning the discoveries of Homo Naledi in South Africa from 2015 to 2018.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/dawn-of-humanity.html

I believe that in the present American society, the ability to make money is related to intelligence. Those non-PC HGP results demonstrated that Intelligence was related to certain gene clusters, and Asians were smarter by about 5 IQ points. The smartest of all groups measured were the Ashkenazi Jews who do indeed have large incomes, as they dominate the diamond trade in NYC. The typical American WASP of course is also somewhere in the mix.

Obviously, exceptions exist. Few have the earnings potential of the Black NBA players, for example. Or that of the giant Blacks and Samoans who dominate the NFL with their freakishly large physiques. Blacks have long dominated Boxing as well.

The endpoints of the IQ bell curves are pretty much in the same places for all races, the median does in fact differ, but we cannot have a conversation on this topic without causing discomfort in many people. But it pretty well demonstrates that the various forms of Reverse Racism are never gonna fix these differences that arise in genes.

The danger associated with this knowledge is that we now know which genes are associated with IQ, both in a negative fashion and a positive fashion. Once you make genetic testing part of anything, the probability of financial success could be calculated for an individual. The injustices that this would impose were explored in the 1997 science fiction film Gattaca, and of course in Huxley's 1932 dystopian novel Brave New World.

Small wonder that Bill Clinton didn't want to share the knowledge with you.