[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'R')everse racism in all it's forms does not at least commit the ultimate racist act, denial that a problem exists.

[Cog]

The same party that nurtured slavery in the South, is the same party that continues to use it for their advantage.

[KaiserJeep]

Plant, your very denials are sickening in their desperate insistence that there is no problem and things are constantly improving.

I did in fact buy my first house in Elgin, when I worked in nearby Schaumburg, both in the greater Chicago area. It was a diverse area that I could afford then. Whites were outnumbered by Hispanics, and there were large numbers of Asians and Blacks as well. Then I lived in Manassas, VA - very segregated in housing. Then Silicon Valley, very desegregated, but curiously with very few Blacks. I have never to my knowledge, done anything to contribute to the problem I am talking about, least of all by denying any problem exists.

This problem will be over when the lines on this chart merge together:

....and it's not "improving" until the lines begin to converge versus diverging.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '
')
This problem will be over when the lines on this chart merge together:

[KaiserJeep]

Then again, I never prescribed any particular solution. Additionally I disparaged the government's reverse racism efforts.

The only thing I insist upon is a recognition that a racism problem exists still in the USA, that it is worsening as time passes, and that eventually another civil war may be the result of such worsening conditions. I believe that is what the available evidence indicates.

It is an injustice in a country that prides itself on the freedom from injustices. It is a problem worthy of attention, and of resolution, no matter the cost.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '
')The only thing I insist upon is a recognition that a racism problem exists still in the USA... It is a problem worthy of attention, and of resolution, no matter the cost.

[KaiserJeep]

The racial wealth disparity is a combination of two things:

2/3rds of it is derived from housing discrimination, because people of color are - in many cases in many places - excluded from "good" neighborhoods where housing appreciates and where they can get low cost, prime mortgages. This happens because of White bigots who discriminate against them, and these bigots are found in both the homes in the "good" neighborhood and at the mortgage lender. This housing discrimination still happens even though it is illegal under the Fair Housing Act, because the FHA is rarely enforced. That would be because the majority who live in "good" neighborhoods and who are not minorities, don't want such enforcement.

The remaining 1/3 of the disparity is because - according to Federal stats - there has been zero improvement in the salary disparity between Whites and Minorities in the last 25 years. Whites are hired in higher numbers and higher initial salaries than Minorities, and get promoted and get raises faster. One reason for this is average education levels - Minorities are more likely to have Blue Collar vocational training, and Whites more likely to have college degrees suitable for White Collar jobs. This remains true even after decades of Affirmative Action in admissions, and the resulting widespread admission of less qualified minority students to colleges and universities. Fewer Minorities make it all the way to graduation, and face it - they are less able than those that can compete without AA in admissions.

Now, Plant, you are proposing that we end AA and other forms of race-based preferences. I understand why you want that, it's fundamentally unfair. However, that proposal is most likely to widen the wealth disparity, not shrink it. Got any ideas that might actually help achieve the objective?

Because, you see, I think the basic problem is White bigotry, leading to housing and education discrimination against Minorities. Without any doubt, the various Reverse Racism actions of the governments are intended to end such discrimination, and they are simply not working because people like you refuse to acknowledge the nature of the problem, which is racial prejudices.

Pragmaticly speaking, a poor solution is a heck of a lot better than none. So what would YOU do in lieu of Reverse Racism, to end the racial wealth disparity?

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '
')Now, Plant, you are proposing that we end AA and other forms of race-based preferences. I understand why you want that, it's fundamentally unfair. However, that proposal is most likely to widen the wealth disparity, not shrink it.

[KaiserJeep]

This is no longer humorous. I have explained more than once in recent messages that Minorities don't have problems in the USA because of what THEY do or don't do. The available evidence says that their problems arise from the way the White majority treats them. Housing discrimination, mortgage discrinination, and the lack of job opportunities don't happen TO THEM because of them, rather they happen because of the attitudes and actions of the White majority.

To be frank, the worst problem they have is their skin color not being White. That is followed closely by another problem, people such as yourself who blame THEM for their condition, and in fact insist that their lack of success is their own fault. That would be an egregious form of racism that is just as offensive as concealing your identity under a set of robes while committing acts of domestic terrorism intended to suppress minorities. Covert racism is of course aimed at racial discrimination without consequences to those that perform such acts. It is vile and pernicious and widespread. It is also not limited to the White race, I have met many bigots of many skin tones.

I am reluctantly forced to endorse Ibon's opinion of you, as expressed earlier in this thread.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '
')I am reluctantly forced to endorse Ibon's opinion of you, as expressed earlier in this thread.

[SeaGypsy]

To which KJ responded fairly, though my description may have been unfair. (Was an off the cuff remark not having read back the full context of the thread/ I've been absent a lot from here lately).

I see both sides here & I'm learning things from both. Personally i strongly believe that the apple rarely falls far from the tree. I've two daughters, half Asian, both very attractive & bright. At the point they start dating, by far the main concern i would have about suitors is what kind of parents they had, & race would be of virtually no consideration, profession only slightly higher. I would want my daughters to be involved with men of character, of ethics. If their parents abused them, got drunk & stoned & spent long periods of time unemployed- it is extremely unlikely i would sanction a relationship between their child & mine. If they were sober, morally upright, good working folks then i wouldn't have a basis in my own ethics to disagree, so i would not.

So, what can the State do about shitty families raising shitty kids? Isn't that the real question? Ok the shittiness often relates to circumstances of race, of racism, but there's shitty drugged out abusive bludgers of white & black families, there's racist folks using racism as their excuse for living shitty lives & raising shitty children on both sides also.

I'm going to raise something- what if race was removed from affirmative action, but affirmative action was increased- to support & encourage kids who determined to get out & away from their shitty families?

An even more radical direct action would be a massive increase in permanent removal & adoption, not foster care shuffling kids around then booting them to the streets at 18.

Of course both are political hot potatoes. But it seems to me that if you want better people, you need better parents. Also like Baha, my philosophy is that staying in a shitty environment because you were born there is pathetic.

[KaiserJeep]

I'll see you that and raise you one. When my only daughter brought home a series of unimpressive boyfriends, I witheld my approval. Then she found one with a better character, and I approved.

Which is how a hardware engineer with 35 years in the business became the Father-In-Law of a software guy. It was an act of extreme tolerance.

Sea Gypsy, you make an excellant point about bad parenting. The typical inner city kid has one parent or none. I suppose that is where the Democrats got their slogan, "it takes a village to raise a kid". Which actually offends me, because my own parents did a good job with six kids, and I like to think I did the same with my one kid.

[evilgenius]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'T')o which KJ responded fairly, though my description may have been unfair. (Was an off the cuff remark not having read back the full context of the thread/ I've been absent a lot from here lately).

I see both sides here & I'm learning things from both. Personally i strongly believe that the apple rarely falls far from the tree. I've two daughters, half Asian, both very attractive & bright. At the point they start dating, by far the main concern i would have about suitors is what kind of parents they had, & race would be of virtually no consideration, profession only slightly higher. I would want my daughters to be involved with men of character, of ethics. If their parents abused them, got drunk & stoned & spent long periods of time unemployed- it is extremely unlikely i would sanction a relationship between their child & mine. If they were sober, morally upright, good working folks then i wouldn't have a basis in my own ethics to disagree, so i would not.

So, what can the State do about shitty families raising shitty kids? Isn't that the real question? Ok the shittiness often relates to circumstances of race, of racism, but there's shitty drugged out abusive bludgers of white & black families, there's racist folks using racism as their excuse for living shitty lives & raising shitty children on both sides also.

I'm going to raise something- what if race was removed from affirmative action, but affirmative action was increased- to support & encourage kids who determined to get out & away from their shitty families?

An even more radical direct action would be a massive increase in permanent removal & adoption, not foster care shuffling kids around then booting them to the streets at 18.

Of course both are political hot potatoes. But it seems to me that if you want better people, you need better parents. Also like Baha, my philosophy is that staying in a shitty environment because you were born there is pathetic.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'b')ad parenting....

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'b')ad parenting....

[SeaGypsy]

Certainly a large part of the breakdown of traditional family is consequential to the provision of welfare benefits to single parents. Another well meaning government intervention with possiblity the most serious unplanned consequences. No longer do mothers require a supporting partner, but deadbeat fathers can opt out of any responsibility without expecting their offspring to starve to death. Of course there are plenty of cases where such welfare is lifesaving, but it's hugely open to abuse- where 'welfare queen' mothers pop out a new baby every now & then for 20 years just to keep that income going & useless sperm bank fathers can go about sewing wild oats for even longer.

[dissident]

The white privilege myth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q_9JVFGGVU

I am tired of these minority racists assuming that I got my education and my house as "gifts" for being white. I had to work and not sit around and bitch about my neighbours. I saw blacks going through the same education system that I did. Nobody was putting them down. (Of course I am not talking about 1950s and 1960s US south). The real problem was that there was too few of them. Seems like it is the "victims" of "white privilege" who want things given to them on a platter and if they do not get them, then it's "white racism".

[KaiserJeep]

The problem is - mainly - that bigoted white people exclude minorities from "good" neighborhoods. This accounts for most of the wealth accumulation that Whites enjoy and Minorities can't have. They can't live in safe neighborhoods where homes appreciate, and they can't get affordable prime mortgages because those are not available for the places they are allowed to live. The rest of the wealth disparity is due to discrimination in hiring and promotions. The Federal government has been trying to "fix" the situation with Reverse Racism such as Affirmative Action hiring and the Fair Housing Act, creating anger in the majority.

Which is a quick summary of the material in this thread that you obviously did not read, before expressing your backlash against Reverse Racism.

Yet you STILL had to add the opinion that Blacks are causing the discrimination that is being done TO them by WHITES. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and attribute this very bigoted stance to ignorance and not prejudice. I too worked for decades and I too earned what I have. But you or I do not have Black skins.

BTW, I watched your video, and it's nonsense.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'T')he problem is - mainly - that bigoted white people exclude minorities from "good" neighborhoods....They can't live in safe neighborhoods where homes appreciate, and they can't get affordable prime mortgages because those are not available for the places they are allowed to live.

[dissident]

Stop blowing smoke up people's a**es, KJ. Black ghettos do not form from Nazi style ethnic cleansing. South Boston, the Bronx, etc. were originally white dominated neighborhoods. If they became black enclaves then that is because whites were driven out. Non-white racists will claim that this is just white racism. In the real world, crime is a prime factor.

Affirmative action has shown no evidence of fixing any of the problems in the 'hood. That is because those problems are not the result of whitey denying blacks good jobs. The problems are due to self-isolation and a bunker mentality where participation in "whitey's system" (even if the employers are blacks) is looked down upon. This self-segregating community eco-system breeds poverty and the criminals that feed off it. You see the same pattern in white communities.

It's time to let the past go and move on.